Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
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25-05-2017, 01:46 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2017 01:58 PM by Cosmo.)
Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
I'm angry.

Really angry.

And before I start my rant I should point out that politically, I'm between left and moderate If you're idea seems more logical, I don't care if you're left or right, I follow logic, reason, humanism and the environment above any political party.

[rant]

My brother is an ex-Christian. Turns out he has also met the criteria for an intellectually dishonest liberal robot. He is more than happy to rake Christianity over the coals of reason with me, yet when I present Islam as a dangerous ideology that manifested the Manchester bombings, he was quick to defend the precepts of Islam, implied I was an Islamophobe, and said that it was only extremists who violate human rights and that it is only when the Quran is misconstrued that this happens. This all on the eve of an Islamic extremist blowing up 22 innocent people, including children, while injuring many others.

Before I continue I should clarify that my brother hasn't read a book, poll, peer-reviewed research article or a scientific journal on Goddamn nothing in years. He literally just spouts off far-left Liberal tripe instead of researching all areas of the political spectrum and coming up with a more scientific and less biased conclusion that might be closer to the truth.

Anyways, I proceeded to point out that while I respect freedom of religion and identity, the Muslim ideology, from a humanistic perspective, is an incredibly dangerous one for people to entertain as factual. I explained to him that human rights violations occur all over the middle east as basic conclusions of Islamic ideology throughout muslim populations, and that they are perpetrated not by extremists, but by mainstream Muslim thinkers who truly believe that adulterers, apostates, and gays should be stoned because Allah said so. I pointed out that Liberals, as humanists, generally, should criticize this idea in a safe environment wherever possible so that its absurdity is both noted and considered, instead of protecting it under the guise of freedom of religion. I proceed to state that freedom of speech should be above freedom of religion when freedom of religion allows for the violation of basic and inalienable human rights, such as the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. He said people are allowed to believe what they want. I said yes, but that doesn't make their beliefs right.

My brother than proceeded to spout off that I was making generalizations about the Muslim population (no I wasn't I was saying Islam is a dangerous ideology that can lead to bad outcomes,) that not all Muslims are bad (which I already know,) and that most Muslims don't believe what the data clearly shows most of them believe.

This is where I got furious and told him he was a fucking idiot. Thank you for denying the needless deaths of all of the people in the Middle East that didn't believe Islam was the truth. Thank you for denying that women don't get stoned to death in the Middle East all the time. Thank you for precipitating this extreme ignorance that all ideologies are equally valid.

I pointed out that Muslims recently wanted to overthrow the Queen of England and turn Buckingham Palace into a mosque. He said that if enough Muslims entered England, then democratically they would have the right to disintegrate the barrier between church and state, since they never made a constitutional separation between the two.

I told him if that happens I can't wait for him to see the results so I can tell him I fucking told you so.

I also told him I've never heard dumber fucking shit come out of his retarded mouth in my entire Goddamn life as I stormed out of the house (we're roommates. And all this time I didn't know he was a fucking moron.) I pointed out that he never reads or researches anything, to which he replied, I don't need to.

Now... here's my question. How the fuck did it become the norm for liberals to defend an ideology that is patently opposed to humanism, while denying Christianity any footing in the Western World at all?

Don't get me wrong I think they're both crazy ideologies that shouldn't be entertained. But how did this happen? Can someone please explain that to me? Is it because Liberals really like that whole 'but not all of them are like that' aspect of Islam, despite the fact that the ideology itself consistently leads to terrible outcomes?

Can someone please shed some light on this because right now I permanently think that my brother is actually the deepest form of intellectually dishonest and fucking moronic that can be conceived. I can't believe, for someone who believes so strongly in the right to a happy life for all, that he can engage in such cognitive dissonance.

Or perhaps maybe I'm in the wrong? I dunno.

[/endrant]

Sorry guys.

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25-05-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Who are the primary victims of Islamic Extremism: Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists/Agnostics?



Answer: Other Muslims. That's the consequence of most of the extremist Muslim factions being in the Muslim world.

So why do liberals defend Muslims? Because no one deserves to be lumped in with the violent extremists when they aren't violent extremists. They defend them for all the reasons you already claim to know ("not all Muslims are bad [which I already know,].")

Any ideology can be a dangerous ideology that leads to bad outcomes. Singling out Muslims because of the extremist sects of Islam is no more fair than trying to single out all Christians because of the Westboro Baptist Church, or singling out Buddhists for the violence they incite against Muslims in the Philippines, or singling out atheists because of people who happen to be atheist who kill people.

Is it true that some assholes use their religion to justify their bigotry, hate, and violence? Yeah, it is. That's not unique to Islam.

So liberals defend Islam in a general sense because of the peaceful people who happen to be Muslims in order to prevent the peaceful Muslims from being treated as if they are violent Muslims. If you want to know why that is a bad thing, then look at what America did to the Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor or what America did to the Jews prior to WW2 during the heyday of the Eugenics movement (part of the reason so many Jews died in Eastern Europe was because they were effectively banned from immigrating to the US).

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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25-05-2017, 02:11 PM
Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Your brother isn't representative of liberal or leftist views so thread title is misleading.

Having said that I saw article on popular leftist site (Krytyka Polityczna) about nowaday Muslims being Jews in 1933 - it was intended to be satirical but it looked just absurd. It wasn't only one such article; I think that if leftists do defend Islam they're doing it cause they see Muslims as underdogs.

Recently book on the subject appeared - James Kirchick "The End of Europe". It deals with other topics too. You may like it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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25-05-2017, 02:15 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Side note: I get "furious" when someone uses an overgeneralization about a broad group of people to try and make them all out to be the "bad" guys. For instance, go ask most Americans what they think of communism and communists and whether or not someone who is a communist can be an American. I bet the anger, hate, and shear ignorance that spews forth from them will be quite overpowering because of the constant demonization of a single political ideology.

And guess what? Your post gives a pretty good bit of insight into how some people are using the same rhetoric and the same tactics with the word "liberal" in the US. Go down to the Bible Belt and see what people have to say about Liberals.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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25-05-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:Who are the primary victims of Islamic Extremism: Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists/Agnostics?



Answer: Other Muslims. That's the consequence of most of the extremist Muslim factions being in the Muslim world.

I feel like extremism is an inappropriate term here. Since polls have shown that the majority of muslims in the middle east believe apostasy is a crime worthy of punishments such as forced divorce, loss of custody of your children, deprivation of your inheritance, up to and including death. Muslims are generally the victims of other muslims religion because they don't follow the tenets of the Quran to the other Muslim's satisfaction.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-w...ut-sharia/

Quote:So why do liberals defend Muslims? Because no one deserves to be lumped in with the violent extremists when they aren't violent extremists.

I agree with that wholeheartedly, and people often tend to conflate ideology with the person. I'm more specifically wondering why the far left doesn't scrutinize Islam as viciously as they criticize Christianity, when it is considerably more absurd and dangerous to people's very lives? I mean this again from the point of looking at the outcomes that Islamic ideology statistically and regularly produces.

Death, being a notable example.

If I say Islam is stupid, I am viewed much more negatively than if I say Christianity is stupid. This seems to consistently be my experience. I'm sorry but just because there are nice muslims, doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to notify them that what they believe is patently false. Just like Christians. But again, Sharia does not allow for scrutiny of the Islamic faith. It seems this has translated over somehow.

Quote:Any ideology can be a dangerous ideology that leads to bad outcomes

Agreed.

Quote:Singling out Muslims because of the extremist sects of Islam is no more fair than trying to single out all Christians because of the Westboro Baptist Church, or singling out Buddhists for the violence they incite against Muslims in the Philippines, or singling out atheists because of people who happen to be atheist who kill people.

I actually would disagree with the last one.

I've never heard of anyone killing anyone else because their lack of belief in a deity told them to. I've heard of people killing people because God told them to though.

Good people do Good things, and bad people do bad things. But it takes religion for good people to do bad things.

Quote:Is it true that some assholes use their religion to justify their bigotry, hate, and violence? Yeah, it is. That's not unique to Islam.

Again, the stats consistently point out that this ideology is inherently more toxic than most other ideologies roaming around planet earth, regardless of the population that does not ingest the toxic bits. It should be scrutinized as ridiculous wherever possible.

Love the brainwashed, hate the brainwashing, so to speak.

Quote:So liberals defend Islam in a general sense because of the peaceful people who happen to be Muslims in order to prevent the peaceful Muslims from being treated as if they are violent Muslims.

This makes sense, because people do often conflate the ideology and person.

Not all of us though. Sam Harris has my back at least.





Quote:If you want to know why that is a bad thing, then look at what America did to the Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor or what America did to the Jews prior to WW2 during the heyday of the Eugenics movement (part of the reason so many Jews died in Eastern Europe was because they were effectively banned from immigrating to the US).

I agree, the right to human dignity should be protected above all. But I should also have the right to say that an ideology is toxic, dangerous, and needs to be discarded as even remotely within the realm of possibility immediately for the sake of human progress.

The only problem is that in the Muslim World, I would be killed for this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgu2HWltQ6E

I feel like the far left has done a wonderful job of defending the human rights of Muslims.

I feel like they have failed in that they have focused all of their scrutiny on Christian theology in the western world while simultaneously ignoring the heinous ridiculousness that Islamic ideology allows for.

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25-05-2017, 02:40 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:Side note: I get "furious" when someone uses an overgeneralization about a broad group of people to try and make them all out to be the "bad" guys

Again, bad ideology that statistically and constantly produces worse results than other ideologies.

I'm not blaming any one person. I'm blaming a stupid fucking idea.

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25-05-2017, 03:00 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
If I could clarify. I'm in no way angry at anyone here if I'm swearing a lot. I'm just angry at my brother. If I seem impassioned, he knows how to push my buttons at the right times. I swear I'll be calm soon.

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25-05-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
My take:

Terrorists are extremists and not reflective of all these people in Islam.

People of the Islamic faith are calloused and hardened by having been raised to accept such practices as stoning etc. They don't share the outrage we have towards violence.

Watching quietly while atrocities are committed is not excusable in my book.

People of the Islamic faith (like most others) are heavily indoctrinated. I don't blame them, but I realize that it will take generations to come out of the old ages.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-05-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:Terrorists are extremists and not reflective of all these people in Islam.

Agreed.

Quote:People of the Islamic faith are calloused and hardened by having been raised to accept such practices as stoning etc. They don't share the outrage we have towards violence.

Thank you for pointing this out. While terrorism specifically is not widespread in Islam, things such as stoning, and death to apostates, adulterers, drunks and homosexuals, or at the very least the deprivation of basic human rights, actually are. In some countries over 50% of muslims believe this is acceptable in fact.

Quote:Watching quietly while atrocities are committed is not excusable in my book.

Nipping the ideologies that cause the atrocities in the butt is the best defence from my perspective.

Knowledge is power.

Defend liberal principles. Even if it means offending a religion.

Quote:People of the Islamic faith (like most others) are heavily indoctrinated. I don't blame them, but I realize that it will take generations to come out of the old ages.

I don't blame them either. It usually happens from such an early age they don't stand a chance. The problem is the indoctrination can run so deeply due to a lack of scientific and historical education that logic and reason are tossed out the window in favour of dogma by the time adulthood is reached. Sad

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25-05-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
In general the left is taught not to discriminate. It's more psychologically comfortable for many on the left to make excuses for Islam or to deny it's a particularly problematic faith. Different religions are founded on different ideas. They're all equally untrue but they're not all equally dangerous. All religions should be discouraged, so in a sense discriminated against. Islam is very obviously the worst major religion so it only makes sense to be especially critical of it. The left often preaches that we should respect all faiths. I vehemently disagree. We should disrespect all faiths and Islam deserves the most disrespect.
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