Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
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25-05-2017, 04:42 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:Show me the evidence that proves Islam "breeds more hate than other ideologies do." Because the statistics won't do that and can't do that because that's not how statistics work. Statistics are mathematical descriptions of data. They can show correlations but can't prove causation.

I already stated that you're welcome to deny the correlation as freely as you so choose. I just gave you the polls. You have demonstrated that you are unfamiliar with Sharia law.

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25-05-2017, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2017 04:52 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 04:42 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:Show me the evidence that proves Islam "breeds more hate than other ideologies do." Because the statistics won't do that and can't do that because that's not how statistics work. Statistics are mathematical descriptions of data. They can show correlations but can't prove causation.

I already stated that you're welcome to deny the correlation as freely as you so choose. I just gave you the polls. You have demonstrated that you are unfamiliar with Sharia law.

I know what Sharia law is but you still don't understand the difference between statistics showing correlation and erroneously trying to draw a causation from this.

Does the age of Miss America have anything to do with murders by steam? No, but they strongly correlate. So if you were to use statistics to draw a correlation, you'd get a strong linear relationship. So using the way you use statistics, you'd draw a causal connection by trying to find any excuse to link the two.


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25-05-2017, 04:46 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
"I already stated that you're welcome to deny the correlation as freely as you so choose."

I'm so glad I have your permission to think for myself. Thank you so, so much Drinking Beverage

Side note: not once have I denied the correlation. I'm pointing out the error in calling that correlation a causation

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25-05-2017, 04:54 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Personally, I consider myself far-left and I think islam is a murderous cult of primitive twits.

Hope that doesn't blow your theory.

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25-05-2017, 04:55 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:I know what Sharia law is but you still do t understand the difference between statistics showing correlation and erroneously trying to draw a causation from this.

Does the age of Miss America have anything to do with murders by steam? No, but they strongly correlate. So if you were to use statistics to draw a correlation, you'd get a strong linear relationship. So using the way you use statistics, you'd draw a causal connection by trying to find any excuse to link the two.

...

... ...

Okay. I've seen your posts here man. I know you're really smart. I mean that. I'm glad you responded because I need to bounce these ideas off of somebody who thinks differently than me. So I need to know you're serious. I don't want to be as assertive as before in my opinion. I want to actually ask you most seriously; actually I'll elaborate first.

In University, in stats class, we learned that there are strong and weak correlations.

What you'd described in your second paragraph is something I would refer to as a weak correlation. It's a conclusion that can be drawn because the numbers strongly correlate, but because the initial premises have absolutely nothing in common, it doesn't bode well with basic philosophical logic and reason.

Then there are strong correlations. In this case, I believe the correlation between Islamic ideology and violent behaviour is strong, simply because their ancient religious texts repeatedly advocate violence, and violence continually results on a daily basis due to this belief system. To me, it is nothing like the meaningless correlation you are trying to amalgamate in your second paragraph.

You actually think there is no correlation between what is said in the Quran and what Muslims do?

Quote:I'm so glad I have your permission to think for myself. Thank you so, so much Drinking Beverage

Tongue

Quote:Side note: not once have I denied the correlation. I'm pointing the error in calling that correlation a causation

If I use your logic it sounds like we're both allowed to draw separate conclusions about the data.

Mine just takes into account that both Mohammed and Allah directly condone violence, while you seem to ignore this.

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25-05-2017, 04:58 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:Personally, I consider myself far-left and I think islam is a murderous cult of primitive twits.

Hope that doesn't blow your theory.

Not at all. You're right. I shouldn't have over-generalized in that regard. Many of them defend Islam while lambasting Christianity. At least where I live.

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25-05-2017, 05:06 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 04:55 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:I know what Sharia law is but you still do t understand the difference between statistics showing correlation and erroneously trying to draw a causation from this.

Does the age of Miss America have anything to do with murders by steam? No, but they strongly correlate. So if you were to use statistics to draw a correlation, you'd get a strong linear relationship. So using the way you use statistics, you'd draw a causal connection by trying to find any excuse to link the two.

...

... ...

Okay. I've seen your posts here man. I know you're really smart. I mean that. I'm glad you responded because I need to bounce these ideas off of somebody who thinks differently than me. So I need to know you're serious. I don't want to be as assertive as before in my opinion. I want to actually ask you most seriously; actually I'll elaborate first.

In University, in stats class, we learned that there are strong and weak correlations.

What you'd described in your second paragraph is something I would refer to as a weak correlation. It's a conclusion that can be drawn because the numbers strongly correlate, but because the initial premises have absolutely nothing in common, it doesn't bode well with basic philosophical logic and reason.

Then there are strong correlations. In this case, I believe the correlation between Islamic ideology and violent behaviour is strong, simply because their ancient religious texts repeatedly advocate violence, and violence continually results on a daily basis due to this belief system. To me, it is nothing like the meaningless correlation you are trying to amalgamate in your second paragraph.

You actually think there is no correlation between what is said in the Quran and what Muslims do?

Quote:I'm so glad I have your permission to think for myself. Thank you so, so much Drinking Beverage

Tongue

Quote:Side note: not once have I denied the correlation. I'm pointing the error in calling that correlation a causation

If I use your logic it sounds like we're both allowed to draw separate conclusions about the data.

Mine just takes into account that both Mohammed and Allah directly condone violence, while you seem to ignore this.

Two things, my latter example (age of miss America and murders by steam) would actually have a very strong correlation (they'd have an r^2 near 1). This still doesn't demonstrate causality.

And that's why different conclusions can be drawn from the correlation, because the correlation tells you one of three things: 1) that there is a potential causal connection, 2) there is a common cause shared by both of them such that they each track it, 3) it's coincidence

So in order to support your assertion that Islam produces (breeds) more hate than any other ideology, you need evidence showing this is necessarily true. You need to demonstrably connect them. You point to Sharia Law, except it isn't a requirement to adhere violently to any Sharia Law. This is evidenced by the abundance of non-violent and secular muslims. So even your Sharia Law example appears to be something unique to the Middle East. So once again we should ask "what is it about the Middle East that produces violence and extremists?" Which means that you need to consider factors beyond Islam. And a good reason to consider this is that terrorists and extremists exist all over the world across numerous ideologies. What seems to be common among them is that the violent extremists tend to come from poor and ignorant areas who then find themselves brainwashed into an ideology. Meaning that if the socioeconomic issues better explain violent extremism (they better explain more of the data and examples) then what role does Islam play? It's the ideology that some Muslims have used to do the indoctrination, but there is no reason to think that any other ideology substituted in its place would produce different results.

Give them Stalinism and see what would happen. Or Christianity. Or Buddhism. Or Islam. Or whatever. My guess is that the extremists among them would take any given ideology and use it to justify violence

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25-05-2017, 05:28 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Ya know. Some people claim black people are just naturally more violent than other "races". They can point to statistics too. Look at the incarceration rates in the US. Or the incidence of violent crime.

Statistics are one thing but they're not the be all and end all. In the case of black people you've got to look at poverty, education and economic opportunities and systematic discrimination both in general, and specifically in application of the law.

No doubt you can find plenty of evidence that people of Islamic religion perpetrate many atrocities... but it doesn't imply necessarily that the religion is the problem.

Personally I think the religion is the excuse and the problem is more to do with people deliberately radicalising the youth as well as conditions (economic, social etc) which allow the youth to be easily radicalised. Let's face it the youth are the only idiots dumb enough to actually think it's a good idea to blow themselves up.

Therefore I'm not so fussed about Muslims in general and more anti the bastards who recruit for e.g. ISIS.

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25-05-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 04:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 03:48 PM)Dom Wrote:  Probably there are other faiths that have people get calloused towards violence.

Really, you can't stop people following their faith, that always backfires.

All you can do is help integrate them with people who are not so calloused towards violence. After a couple of generations, the callousness will be disappearing.

There is no short term solution.

Not only is there no short term solution, there is no simple solution because it isn't a simple problem even though people want to make it into one (by saying things like Islam itself is the problem).

And I get it. If it were as simple as Islam being the problem, then at least the solution is simple and straightforward (not easy mind you). But to acknowledge that the problem isn't so simple, makes dealing with it much more complex. And people hate complex problems.

Understanding complexity does help yes. The downside to that is that the people justifying that complexity are most likely a product of what their parents sold them, so when they turn around and sell it to others, they want you on that yellow brick road where you fall for it, or at a minimum they look good to those whom already agree with them.

I think the simple solution is to always understand no matter our labels we are still the same species. We all need resources, we all want love, we all want to feel safe in our environments.

So yes, understanding complex issues is important to political and global diplomacy and resource management and reducing conflict.

But there really is not that much to religion, that was then, this is now.

I have debated followers of all the world's major religions in my 16 years of on line debate, and when you do that enough you see the same arguments, but simply pointing to a different club.

I think it is more important to know the complexities to deconstruct them, to plant seeds of doubt. But as far as cosmic time, not so much. Our species is far older than any written religion, and we can observe other species acts of cooperation, compassion and cruelty.

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25-05-2017, 05:34 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 05:28 PM)morondog Wrote:  Ya know. Some people claim black people are just naturally more violent than other "races". They can point to statistics too. Look at the incarceration rates in the US. Or the incidence of violent crime.

Statistics are one thing but they're not the be all and end all. In the case of black people you've got to look at poverty, education and economic opportunities and systematic discrimination both in general, and specifically in application of the law.

No doubt you can find plenty of evidence that people of Islamic religion perpetrate many atrocities... but it doesn't imply necessarily that the religion is the problem.

Personally I think the religion is the excuse and the problem is more to do with people deliberately radicalising the youth as well as conditions (economic, social etc) which allow the youth to be easily radicalised. Let's face it the youth are the only idiots dumb enough to actually think it's a good idea to blow themselves up.

Therefore I'm not so fussed about Muslims in general and more anti the bastards who recruit for e.g. ISIS.

Thank you MD. The example of race occurred to me earlier but I didn't want to try and explain that while on mobile.

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