Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
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25-05-2017, 05:34 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:Two things, my latter example (age of miss America and murders by steam) would actually have a very strong correlation (they'd have an r^2 near 1). This still doesn't demonstrate causality.

Philosophically they are in no way correlated, as I said before.

I feel like your last sentence points out what I was trying to say, because there is no philosophical similarity of ideation between the two.

Quote:And that's why different conclusions can be drawn from the correlation, because the correlation tells you one of three things: 1) that there is a potential causal connection, 2) there is a common cause shared by both of them such that they each track it, 3) it's coincidence

Agreed. Smile

Quote:So in order to support your assertion that Islam produces (breeds) more hate than any other ideology, you need evidence showing this is necessarily true. You need to demonstrably connect them

The thing about religion is that it manifests itself only in ideology and in human behaviour, so apart from stats and correlations I'm not sure what else I could give you to demonstrate that what people believe influences how they behave. I figured you would have already known that what people think, again, influences what they do.

Quote:You point to Sharia Law, except it isn't a requirement to adhere violently to any Sharia Law. This is evidenced by the abundance of non-violent and secular muslims. So even your Sharia Law example appears to be something unique to the Middle East. So once again we should ask "what is it about the Middle East that produces violence and extremists?" Which means that you need to consider factors beyond Islam. And a good reason to consider this is that terrorists and extremists exist all over the world across numerous ideologies. What seems to be common among them is that the violent extremists tend to come from poor and ignorant areas who then find themselves brainwashed into an ideology. Meaning that if the socioeconomic issues better explain violent extremism (they better explain more of the data and examples) then what role does Islam play? It's the ideology that some Muslims have used to do the indoctrination, but there is no reason to think that any other ideology substituted in its place would produce different results.

This is patently and demonstrably false. The bombers and terrorists who have most recently committed the most violent acts were actually people who grew up in the west, in their mid 20's who were polluted by Islamist ideology.

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25-05-2017, 05:38 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 03:07 PM)Dom Wrote:  My take:

Terrorists are extremists and not reflective of all these people in Islam.

People of the Islamic faith are calloused and hardened by having been raised to accept such practices as stoning etc. They don't share the outrage we have towards violence.

Watching quietly while atrocities are committed is not excusable in my book.

People of the Islamic faith (like most others) are heavily indoctrinated. I don't blame them, but I realize that it will take generations to come out of the old ages.

Christians can be, and are indeed, calloused to violence in some countries in Africa and Latin America. It's not so much Islam as it just the level of development of the societies.

People in the west tend to see the violence committed by Muslims, but have a blind-spot to the violence being carried out everyday in Islamic societies by nominally non-Muslim protagonists.

For instance there is not much by way of coverage of the fact that in addition to the terror by ISIS and others, predominantly Muslim civilians are routinely killed in airstrikes from Russians and Americans.

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25-05-2017, 05:38 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 05:33 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 04:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Not only is there no short term solution, there is no simple solution because it isn't a simple problem even though people want to make it into one (by saying things like Islam itself is the problem).

And I get it. If it were as simple as Islam being the problem, then at least the solution is simple and straightforward (not easy mind you). But to acknowledge that the problem isn't so simple, makes dealing with it much more complex. And people hate complex problems.

Understanding complexity does help yes. The downside to that is that the people justifying that complexity are most likely a product of what their parents sold them, so when they turn around and sell it to others, they want you on that yellow brick road where you fall for it, or at a minimum they look good to those whom already agree with them.

I think the simple solution is to always understand no matter our labels we are still the same species. We all need resources, we all want love, we all want to feel safe in our environments.

So yes, understanding complex issues is important to political and global diplomacy and resource management and reducing conflict.

But there really is not that much to religion, that was then, this is now.

I have debated followers of all the world's major religions in my 16 years of on line debate, and when you do that enough you see the same arguments, but simply pointing to a different club.

I think it is more important to know the complexities to deconstruct them, to plant seeds of doubt. But as far as cosmic time, not so much. Our species is far older than any written religion, and we can observe other species acts of cooperation, compassion and cruelty.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still anti-religion and I'm not making mistakes for Islam by any means. I think religion is a common and easy manipulative tool, but it's not any one religion and other ideologies aren't immune to corruption either.

I think Islam is as flawed and ignorant as any other religion. And I'm aware of its calls for punishment for arbitrary infractions against Mohammed and Allah, but Islam isn't the only one to condone violence and certainly not the only religion who've had believers use it as a convenient excuse. But religion is a excuse. It is present and it's an easy path to extremism. But religion itself isn't the cause of our problems, the primitive and aggressive roots of our species are. And from those primitive roots was born religion.

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25-05-2017, 05:42 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 05:34 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:Two things, my latter example (age of miss America and murders by steam) would actually have a very strong correlation (they'd have an r^2 near 1). This still doesn't demonstrate causality.

Philosophically they are in no way correlated, as I said before.

I feel like your last sentence points out what I was trying to say, because there is no philosophical similarity of ideation between the two.

Quote:And that's why different conclusions can be drawn from the correlation, because the correlation tells you one of three things: 1) that there is a potential causal connection, 2) there is a common cause shared by both of them such that they each track it, 3) it's coincidence

Agreed. Smile

Quote:So in order to support your assertion that Islam produces (breeds) more hate than any other ideology, you need evidence showing this is necessarily true. You need to demonstrably connect them

The thing about religion is that it manifests itself only in ideology and in human behaviour, so apart from stats and correlations I'm not sure what else I could give you to demonstrate that what people believe influences how they behave. I figured you would have already known that what people think, again, influences what they do.

Quote:You point to Sharia Law, except it isn't a requirement to adhere violently to any Sharia Law. This is evidenced by the abundance of non-violent and secular muslims. So even your Sharia Law example appears to be something unique to the Middle East. So once again we should ask "what is it about the Middle East that produces violence and extremists?" Which means that you need to consider factors beyond Islam. And a good reason to consider this is that terrorists and extremists exist all over the world across numerous ideologies. What seems to be common among them is that the violent extremists tend to come from poor and ignorant areas who then find themselves brainwashed into an ideology. Meaning that if the socioeconomic issues better explain violent extremism (they better explain more of the data and examples) then what role does Islam play? It's the ideology that some Muslims have used to do the indoctrination, but there is no reason to think that any other ideology substituted in its place would produce different results.

This is patently and demonstrably false. The bombers and terrorists who have most recently committed the most violent acts were actually people who grew up in the west, in their mid 20's who were polluted by Islamist ideology.

You think that the most recent attacks are the worst? You seriously think that suicide bombings and murder are not constantly happening in the Middle East by Muslims to Muslims? Just because it's not occurring in the western world doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

(Statistics can never show causation. It can only look for correlative relationships. So when you said statistics prove a causal relationship and then say "weak" vs "strong" correlation and then change it to philosophically connected, this is getting all over the place and hard to follow. Statistics can never show a "philosophical" relationship. That's nonsensical)

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25-05-2017, 05:47 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:You think that the most recent attacks are the worst? You seriously think that suicide bombings and murder are not constantly happening in the Middle East by Muslims to Muslims? Just because it's not occurring in the western world doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

That's kinda what I'm getting at. I can't remember the last time I heard of Buddhists or Christians consistently strapping bombs to their chest in the name of God.

Quote:You think that the most recent attacks are the worst? You seriously think that suicide bombings and murder are not constantly happening in the Middle East by Muslims to Muslims? Just because it's not occurring in the western world doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

[quote](Statistics can never show causation. It can only look for correlative relationships. So when you said statistics prove a causal relationship and then say "weak" vs "strong" correlation and then change it to philosophically connected, this is getting all over the place and hard to follow. Statistics can never show a "philosophical" relationship. That's nonsensical)

I would say that the only thing that was nonsensical was your particular correlation, since they were in no way related. If you don't believe in correlative studies that's fine. I'm not going to talk with you about them anymore because I have come to realize that you never took stats and clearly don't understand their value.

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25-05-2017, 05:51 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 05:47 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:You think that the most recent attacks are the worst? You seriously think that suicide bombings and murder are not constantly happening in the Middle East by Muslims to Muslims? Just because it's not occurring in the western world doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

That's kinda what I'm getting at. I can't remember the last time I heard of Buddhists or Christians consistently strapping bombs to their chest in the name of God.

Quote:You think that the most recent attacks are the worst? You seriously think that suicide bombings and murder are not constantly happening in the Middle East by Muslims to Muslims? Just because it's not occurring in the western world doesn't mean it isn't occurring.

[quote](Statistics can never show causation. It can only look for correlative relationships. So when you said statistics prove a causal relationship and then say "weak" vs "strong" correlation and then change it to philosophically connected, this is getting all over the place and hard to follow. Statistics can never show a "philosophical" relationship. That's nonsensical)

I would say that the only thing that was nonsensical was your particular correlation, since they were in no way related. If you don't believe in correlative studies that's fine. I'm not going to talk with you about them anymore because I have come to realize that you never took stats and clearly don't understand their value.

If you don't know of recent violence by Christians and Buddhists, you aren't looking. For instance: Bosnia

And I understand statistics. You don't understand how one confirms a causal relationship and what the utility is of statistics in showing correlation. Statistics can corroborate our findings if you've a mechanistic link between your response variable and your cause. Statistics alone can't draw a causal relationship.

Courses I've taken on stats (doesn't include times I've taught statistics in classes I've taught):
Intro stats
Multivariate stats
ANOVA and experimental design
Various classes on R
And I have to understand statistics in order to employ them in my research

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25-05-2017, 05:53 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 05:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 05:33 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Understanding complexity does help yes. The downside to that is that the people justifying that complexity are most likely a product of what their parents sold them, so when they turn around and sell it to others, they want you on that yellow brick road where you fall for it, or at a minimum they look good to those whom already agree with them.

I think the simple solution is to always understand no matter our labels we are still the same species. We all need resources, we all want love, we all want to feel safe in our environments.

So yes, understanding complex issues is important to political and global diplomacy and resource management and reducing conflict.

But there really is not that much to religion, that was then, this is now.

I have debated followers of all the world's major religions in my 16 years of on line debate, and when you do that enough you see the same arguments, but simply pointing to a different club.

I think it is more important to know the complexities to deconstruct them, to plant seeds of doubt. But as far as cosmic time, not so much. Our species is far older than any written religion, and we can observe other species acts of cooperation, compassion and cruelty.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still anti-religion and I'm not making mistakes for Islam by any means. I think religion is a common and easy manipulative tool, but it's not any one religion and other ideologies aren't immune to corruption either.

I think Islam is as flawed and ignorant as any other religion. And I'm aware of its calls for punishment for arbitrary infractions against Mohammed and Allah, but Islam isn't the only one to condone violence and certainly not the only religion who've had believers use it as a convenient excuse. But religion is a excuse. It is present and it's an easy path to extremism. But religion itself isn't the cause of our problems, the primitive and aggressive roots of our species are. And from those primitive roots was born religion.

The only way you can get to the roots of a problem is to expose the excuse that perpetuates the problem.

Regardless, you cant create a utopia on a planet of 7 billion so religion will never go away completely. I'd only say to you that if you simply deflect to saying it is our primitive nature, that still does not change the fact you also said it is an excuse. And excuses are what humans hide behind.

Religion is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, even under the same umbrella label you have diverse sub sects all competing for the political power.

I think the more humans we can get to understand that our behaviors are in us and not our labels, then we can work more on moving away from or primitive violent side. So if religion is the excuse, and I agree it is, it has to be challenged so that it cannot be used as an excuse. But, in doing that, we have to be equal in our scrutiny of all religions, even with our fellow atheists.

I don't even want atheists thinking the word "atheist" has some magic power to prevent one from harming others, it still remains our species behaviors good or bad are evolutionary, and not in a label.

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25-05-2017, 05:55 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
[Image: haidt-moral-channels.jpg]
Jonathan Haidt, moral intuition vs. political spectrum

Liberals are more likely to appeal to standards of fairness in resolving moral dilemmas. And feelings along the ingroup/loyalty scale may be biased towards inclusion, rather than exclusivity. Islamic societies may be more conservative, and emphasize tribal like exclusivity. Perhaps the problem of integrating Islamic societies into their (the liberal's) world presents a tough choice among their values. They consider inclusiveness the most fair, and fairness the most prized. Perhaps. (It's only a model...)
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25-05-2017, 05:58 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 05:53 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 05:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Don't get me wrong, I'm still anti-religion and I'm not making mistakes for Islam by any means. I think religion is a common and easy manipulative tool, but it's not any one religion and other ideologies aren't immune to corruption either.

I think Islam is as flawed and ignorant as any other religion. And I'm aware of its calls for punishment for arbitrary infractions against Mohammed and Allah, but Islam isn't the only one to condone violence and certainly not the only religion who've had believers use it as a convenient excuse. But religion is a excuse. It is present and it's an easy path to extremism. But religion itself isn't the cause of our problems, the primitive and aggressive roots of our species are. And from those primitive roots was born religion.

The only way you can get to the roots of a problem is to expose the excuse that perpetuates the problem.

Regardless, you cant create a utopia on a planet of 7 billion so religion will never go away completely. I'd only say to you that if you simply deflect to saying it is our primitive nature, that still does not change the fact you also said it is an excuse. And excuses are what humans hide behind.

Religion is a horrible way to conduct political diplomacy, even under the same umbrella label you have diverse sub sects all competing for the political power.

I think the more humans we can get to understand that our behaviors are in us and not our labels, then we can work more on moving away from or primitive violent side. So if religion is the excuse, and I agree it is, it has to be challenged so that it cannot be used as an excuse. But, in doing that, we have to be equal in our scrutiny of all religions, even with our fellow atheists.

I don't even want atheists thinking the word "atheist" has some magic power to prevent one from harming others, it still remains our species behaviors good or bad are evolutionary, and not in a label.

I think you and I are in near perfect agreement. I agree that excuses like religion are common, and aren't the root cause. But I think it's a terrible idea to go around trying to brand Islam as unique or as being more violent or hateful. I don't think one could demonstrably prove it if it were true.

(I don't know that you'd say Islam was more hateful or violent. I mean more generally)

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25-05-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:But I think it's a terrible idea to go around trying to brand Islam as unique or as being more violent or hateful.

I came back from getting some groceries to read this statement. I figured this was your thesis for the most part. Based on my reading, I would disagree. Despite what you think, it is possible for one ideology to be worse than the other.

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