Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
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25-05-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 06:06 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:But I think it's a terrible idea to go around trying to brand Islam as unique or as being more violent or hateful.

I came back from getting some groceries to read this statement. I figured this was your thesis for the most part. Based on my reading, I would disagree. Despite what you think, it is possible for one ideology to be worse than the other.

I don't know how one measures how "bad" or "good" any given ideology is. Do you measure it in lives lost? Lives indoctrinated? Lives helped? Hurt? Countries controlled by it?

So yes, I think it is erroneous to go around pretending that you can objectively label any singular ideology as worse than any other. That's a gross oversimplification that results in people in that group becoming ostracized or discrimated against, regardless of whether or not they belong to the violent sect. This is how innocent people get blamed for the actions of a small subset of their group. I think that's morally defunct

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25-05-2017, 06:31 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:I don't know how one measures how "bad" or "good" any given ideology is. Do you measure it in lives lost? Lives indoctrinated? Lives helped? Hurt? Countries controlled by it?

So yes, I think it is erroneous to go around pretending that you can objectively label any singular ideology as worse than any other. That's a gross oversimplification that results in people in that group becoming ostracized or discrimated against, regardless of whether or not they belong to the violent sect. This is how innocent people get blamed for the actions of a small subset of their group. I think that's morally defunct

I suppose the polls all are subjective when they measure outcomes in 'lives lost' and 'women raped,' and 'genitals mutliated,' as bad outcomes. I guess I'm biased in that I consider those bad too. If they happen more under one religion than another I'm going to assume that religion is the worst. If that's subjective, whatever.

You're right people shouldn't subject those who don't do those things to scrutiny. A belief system should be subjected to severe scrutiny if it is retarded, however.

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25-05-2017, 06:38 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 06:31 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:I don't know how one measures how "bad" or "good" any given ideology is. Do you measure it in lives lost? Lives indoctrinated? Lives helped? Hurt? Countries controlled by it?

So yes, I think it is erroneous to go around pretending that you can objectively label any singular ideology as worse than any other. That's a gross oversimplification that results in people in that group becoming ostracized or discrimated against, regardless of whether or not they belong to the violent sect. This is how innocent people get blamed for the actions of a small subset of their group. I think that's morally defunct

I suppose the polls all are subjective when they measure outcomes in 'lives lost' and 'women raped,' and 'genitals mutliated,' as bad outcomes. I guess I'm biased in that I consider those bad too. If they happen more under one religion than another I'm going to assume that religion is the worst. If that's subjective, whatever.

You're right people shouldn't subject those who don't do those things to scrutiny. A belief system should be subjected to severe scrutiny if it is retarded, however.

You're still asserting that only Islam does the terrible things you mention? Did you not look up violence by other religious groups for...I don't know...any time this century? Like Bosnia? Or the cases of genital mutiliation in New York performed by rabbis that ended up spreading herpes to the infants because they use their mouths to do the circumcisions?

Literally no one on this thread has denied the evil things committed in the name of Islam...or any other religion or ideology. But you keep trying to make Islam unique. Once again, you inadvertently blame the innocent when you overgeneralize a group and you do yourself a disservice to not look up the abhorrent actions and atrocities committed by those of other ideologies, religious or otherwise

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25-05-2017, 06:47 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2017 07:00 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:You're still asserting that only Islam does the terrible things you mention? Did you not look up violence by other religious groups for...I don't know...any time this century? Like Bosnia? Or the cases of genital mutiliation in New York performed by rabbis that ended up spreading herpes to the infants because they use their mouths to do the circumcisions?

Statistical propensity for said outcomes to occur.

Quote:But you keep trying to make Islam unique.

It is unique in that it consistently produces the statistical anomaly of religious violence within the western world.

Quote:Once again, you inadvertently blame the innocent when you overgeneralize a group and you do yourself a disservice to not look up the abhorrent actions and atrocities committed by those of other ideologies, religious or otherwise

I am aware of the atrocities committed by other religions. For the 8th time I do not blame Muslims for what they believe, but the Islamic ideology itself. Thinking it is more abhorrent than other religions is not unreasonable, simply because after looking at the data basic logic says this ideology in the modern day is more dangerous than others. More atrocities are committed in the name off Allah in the Western World than any other random deity. Boom boom cut and dry. Deny it all you want. Yes other religions produce bad outcomes, but not quite as frequently. I feel like you've been deliberately ignoring this when you know this is what I've been trying to get at the whole time.

I'm not trying to generalize. As I said earlier, a lot of them are nice. For the 9th time now I guess. But the ideology they hold, while being peaceful in the minds of some, can be very dangerous in the minds of others. Statistically moreso than other schools of thought, in fact.

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25-05-2017, 07:31 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Yeah I guess after calming down for a bit I realized I really do just greatly dislike the Quran and Islam as ideologies. Sorry if that offends anyone. I just think they consistently lead to egregious outcomes. Sad

The Manchester bombing broke my heart.

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26-05-2017, 01:00 AM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(25-05-2017 07:31 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Yeah I guess after calming down for a bit I realized I really do just greatly dislike the Quran and Islam as ideologies. Sorry if that offends anyone. I just think they consistently lead to egregious outcomes. Sad
See, that's... fine. I don't like the Quran or Islam very much either. The religion. In the same way I don't like Catholicism or the Pope. But I think... like Dom said. Most of those guys are thoroughly brainwashed. I can despise their religion while remembering that they themselves are human.

Plus it can't be that helpful, say when you come from say Iraq or Syria or Libya. And your family's moved to Europe because the UK, America, Russia and whoever else bombed the living shit out of the place you used to call home, all in the name of freedom. Killed your leader whom (despite his despotic rule) you were brought up to revere. If the local imam starts ranting about how the "crusaders" all are out to get good Muslims... it sounds kinda true. These kind of guys are *ripe* for turning into terrorists.

Quote:The Manchester bombing broke my heart.
At risk of sounding cruel, it did nothing for mine. It was shocking for the UK because they're used to thinking they're safe and because kids died. It became a media frenzy. That's all. If that exact thing had occurred in Egypt, Syria, Kenya, even somewhere closer to Europe like Turkey or Greece... the world's media might have covered it very briefly if at all. No one cares about deaths far away. ETA: That's probably too much of a generalisation. And it's untrue even for me. 9/11 hit hard, I think because there's actual footage. Same with this Manchester bombing, although I've been very careful not to watch it.

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26-05-2017, 04:55 AM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
There does seem to be widespread ignorance about Islam. So many people have bought this idea that it's a "religion of peace", and that the Quran/Hadiths support that. Lots of people are really shocked when I tell them what goes on in their texts.

You can have any number of Muslims being peaceful, even all of them. But that doesn't change what is written in those books. Like Christians, they are finding elaborate ways to ignore most of what it says in order to be peaceful. That is fantastic and they should keep on doing that.

I think it's a combination of ignorance and fear that stops many people, especially high-profile public figures, criticising the Quran/Hadiths. To me, there is no question that a straightforward reading of those books presents a horrific ideology, if followed closely.

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26-05-2017, 06:51 AM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
To follow up:

Christianity and Judaism are just as bad, as far as texts go. Many other religions have serious problems as well, although they tend not to be quite as barbaric.

However, Islam seems to have a problem that Christiany and Judaism don't have. Its texts are much less flexible. Finding "nice" passages to hold onto that contradict the horrible ones is far harder, and the whole thing is written to be a (fairly) organized indoctrination manual from page 1. Christianty and Judaism rather present a muddled collection of stories, from which virtually any conclusion can be drawn to defend any position after resolving internal contradictions and applying some blinders.

For sure, the Quran has its share of contradictions as well, but I believe it's much more focused. I think this is contributing to Islam gelling less well with secular cultures than the other two. It's more resistant to being diluted.

This is based on my study of the Quran so far and some further opinions from people I respect. If anyone has comments on the above I'd love to hear them.

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26-05-2017, 09:53 AM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(26-05-2017 06:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  This is based on my study of the Quran so far and some further opinions from people I respect. If anyone has comments on the above I'd love to hear them.

I approached my study of Islam and the Quran from the angle of certain apologists and highly selective interpreters. So I was quite surprised by what I found out later, when I dug into the details myself. Now I agree more with your assessment.
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26-05-2017, 10:04 AM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2017 10:37 AM by Cosmo.)
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:See, that's... fine. I don't like the Quran or Islam very much either. The religion. In the same way I don't like Catholicism or the Pope. But I think... like Dom said. Most of those guys are thoroughly brainwashed. I can despise their religion while remembering that they themselves are human.

Plus it can't be that helpful, say when you come from say Iraq or Syria or Libya. And your family's moved to Europe because the UK, America, Russia and whoever else bombed the living shit out of the place you used to call home, all in the name of freedom. Killed your leader whom (despite his despotic rule) you were brought up to revere. If the local imam starts ranting about how the "crusaders" all are out to get good Muslims... it sounds kinda true. These kind of guys are *ripe* for turning into terrorists.

Perfectly said. I hate an idea. Not a person. If an idea can conjure poison, it should be left inside its spell book.

Here is my ultimate issue: Liberals rigorously defend the people of Islam when they move to the Western World, and this is a fantastic thing. What many of them fail to realize, and it must be a lack of looking into the facts of the religion, is that the religion itself as a worldview is diametrically opposed to everything that Liberalism stands for. The effects of this are plain as day in Muslim dominated countries, and have been for thousands of years, where things such as misogyny, public executions for religious crimes, forced marriages, and mistreatment of transexuals and homosexuals are often standard practice.

In terms of terror, I would think the west's attempted puppeteering in the Middle east is absolutely the reason for ideology turning into hate and spreading westward, there is no question. I would hesitate to say that this is a regular part of their religion. Jihad is, indeed, extreme.

Anyways, I guess ultimately I feel like while it is important to defend human rights, it is also important to oppose viewpoints that can support human rights violations.

Earlier I posted a debate between Ben Affleck and Sam Harris/Bill Maher that wasn't supposed to happen (Affleck was a panelist who jumped in,) where Sam Harris stated clearly that while there are many peaceful practicing Muslims, the ideology itself is inherently dangerous and needs to be called out as rigorously in liberal intellectual circles as Christianity is.

It wasn't really a debate, it was more like Ben Affleck calling Sam Harris names.

Anyways. I found a video afterwards of Richard Dawkins stating perfectly in 3'01 what I tried to write out for a good chunk of yesterday, in commentary on this random debate between Batman and Sam.

Although at one point he means racist, not religious (Dawkins that is,) while he's explaining. Just a heads up.





Quote:There does seem to be widespread ignorance about Islam. So many people have bought this idea that it's a "religion of peace", and that the Quran/Hadiths support that. Lots of people are really shocked when I tell them what goes on in their texts.

Exactly.

Depending who you're talking to the rhetoric often turns insulting instead of intellectual.

Quote:You can have any number of Muslims being peaceful, even all of them. But that doesn't change what is written in those books. Like Christians, they are finding elaborate ways to ignore most of what it says in order to be peaceful. That is fantastic and they should keep on doing that.

I think it's a combination of ignorance and fear that stops many people, especially high-profile public figures, criticising the Quran/Hadiths. To me, there is no question that a straightforward reading of those books presents a horrific ideology, if followed closely.

Perfectly stated. I think it is the fear of being politically incorrect. Stating that a worldview held by billions actually has the potential to be global venom doesn't necessarily sound too good to a lot of people.

Quote:To follow up:

Christianity and Judaism are just as bad, as far as texts go. Many other religions have serious problems as well, although they tend not to be quite as barbaric.

I find that these texts aren't as often taken in a context where people justify violence or the mistreatment of others (Though the verses to do so do certainly exist in those texts, no dispute from me there.)

Quote:However, Islam seems to have a problem that Christiany and Judaism don't have. Its texts are much less flexible. Finding "nice" passages to hold onto that contradict the horrible ones is far harder, and the whole thing is written to be a (fairly) organized indoctrination manual from page 1. Christianty and Judaism rather present a muddled collection of stories, from which virtually any conclusion can be drawn to defend any position after resolving internal contradictions and applying some blinders.

And this is likely a good explanation as to why.

Quote:For sure, the Quran has its share of contradictions as well, but I believe it's much more focused. I think this is contributing to Islam gelling less well with secular cultures than the other two. It's more resistant to being diluted.

It's because there are passages that allow for the murder of anyone who criticizes or insults Islamic ideology.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/...lence.aspx

Edited in:

Thoreauvian Wrote:Now I agree more with your assessment.

I do too. I thought it was a good summary of the situation.

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