Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
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26-05-2017, 12:19 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Szuchow Wrote:Your brother isn't representative of liberal or leftist views so thread title is misleading.

Having said that I saw article on popular leftist site (Krytyka Polityczna) about nowaday Muslims being Jews in 1933 - it was intended to be satirical but it looked just absurd. It wasn't only one such article; I think that if leftists do defend Islam they're doing it cause they see Muslims as underdogs.

Recently book on the subject appeared - James Kirchick "The End of Europe". It deals with other topics too. You may like it.

I just realized I missed when you responded to me. Sorry about that.

It's true, not all liberals are afraid to speak out against Islamic ideology. Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Dawkins are all liberals, and they were who I was referencing earlier as making good points.

I may have generalized there out of anger at my brother. My bad.

That sounds like it might be interesting. You read it yourself?

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26-05-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
As a Liberal I'll just say that I'm not for Islam so much as I'm against the seemingly uncontested socio-political dominance of Christians in the US. I'm for ALL groups having a voice, whether they're groups I agree with or not. I think, while the acts of individual radicalized Muslims in the US can be quite frightening and attention-grabbing, they PALE in comparison to the damage that the evangelical Christian agenda is causing to our secular democracy. I'm for ANY voice that speaks out against that agenda because I think it's the primary threat we have to deal with right now. But I certainly don't want it replaced by an equally barbaric and repressive philosophy.

In terms of defending "Islam" I think there's a notable difference between defending Islam as a philosophy, and defending the right of Muslims to participate in our democracy. The two concepts are not the same.
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26-05-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(26-05-2017 12:19 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Szuchow Wrote:Your brother isn't representative of liberal or leftist views so thread title is misleading.

Having said that I saw article on popular leftist site (Krytyka Polityczna) about nowaday Muslims being Jews in 1933 - it was intended to be satirical but it looked just absurd. It wasn't only one such article; I think that if leftists do defend Islam they're doing it cause they see Muslims as underdogs.

Recently book on the subject appeared - James Kirchick "The End of Europe". It deals with other topics too. You may like it.

I just realized I missed when you responded to me. Sorry about that.

It's true, not all liberals are afraid to speak out against Islamic ideology. Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Dawkins are all liberals, and they were who I was referencing earlier as making good points.

I may have generalized there out of anger at my brother. My bad.

That sounds like it might be interesting. You read it yourself?

No problem.

Liberals and leftist defending Muslims is generalization, but far from being completely untrue. As I said I even saw the piece comparing Muslims to Jews. From what I remember I deem Harris critique to be valid but one has to remember what data show - Islamic terrorism is less dangerous to USA than Jewish one - http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims...ca/5333619

(It's not dig at you or Harris, just general observation).

Yes, I had read it. It deal with couple of european issues like Brexit, Hungary revisionism, France antisemitism or troubles with Muslims. It's interesting but I think that author is somewhat biassed and his claim that living in Germany made him understand Europe (paraphrasing here) is laughable rather than accurate. Overall it's worth reading but should be taken with grain of salt I suppose.

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26-05-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
(26-05-2017 12:19 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Szuchow Wrote:Your brother isn't representative of liberal or leftist views so thread title is misleading.

Having said that I saw article on popular leftist site (Krytyka Polityczna) about nowaday Muslims being Jews in 1933 - it was intended to be satirical but it looked just absurd. It wasn't only one such article; I think that if leftists do defend Islam they're doing it cause they see Muslims as underdogs.

Recently book on the subject appeared - James Kirchick "The End of Europe". It deals with other topics too. You may like it.

I just realized I missed when you responded to me. Sorry about that.

It's true, not all liberals are afraid to speak out against Islamic ideology. Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Dawkins are all liberals, and they were who I was referencing earlier as making good points.

I may have generalized there out of anger at my brother. My bad.

That sounds like it might be interesting. You read it yourself?

As a pointless aside, I have always hated "my bad".

I always want to ask, "Did you buy that bad at Walmart? Do you have a receipt for that bad?"

Anywho, yea, not all liberals value censorship as a blanket solution. I value blasphemy ridicule and even cussing sometimes, but that is not the same as political demagoguery.

Political demagoguery isn't mere blasphemy, it is using a seat of power to vilify entire groups. Blasphemy is merely telling someone they are full of shit on an claim, even if you like that person outside that claim.

Maybe you need to explain that difference to your brother.

I like to put it to people this way. I love my late mom, she was mostly a lifetime voting republican. I hated that she held those positions but I love her as a human being. But if she went around every day claiming "The New England Patriots beat the Chicago Cubs in the Stanley Cup", yes that would irritate me even to the point of saying "bullshit".

I will stand up to fellow liberals if their solution is never say boo ever. It depends on context of situation and never is not a good plan. That is actually what closed states use to squash dissent, their policy is "never".

Having said that, simply not liking someone else is not enough to keep them from coming here, that is bullshit.

You can attack the claim, attack the reasoning, attack the writing, but it is inhuman to claim everyone who shares a label is automatically going to be evil. If you think like that you are not a blasphemer or a critic, you are a bigot and a demagogue.

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26-05-2017, 01:52 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2017 02:04 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:As a Liberal I'll just say that I'm not for Islam so much as I'm against the seemingly uncontested socio-political dominance of Christians in the US

That's understandable. Living in the US that would definitely seem like the more pressing threat, given that certain politicians still want YEC taught as a scientific theory in the classroom.

Quote:I'm for ALL groups having a voice, whether they're groups I agree with or not

I agree. With that comes the voice that has the right to question the validity of any and all ideologies.

Quote:I think, while the acts of individual radicalized Muslims in the US can be quite frightening and attention-grabbing, they PALE in comparison to the damage that the evangelical Christian agenda is causing to our secular democracy. I'm for ANY voice that speaks out against that agenda because I think it's the primary threat we have to deal with right now. But I certainly don't want it replaced by an equally barbaric and repressive philosophy.

If you live in the US, again, I certainly can see this being the more pressing threat to humanism. In Europe, the more pressing problem seems to be the mass influx of Islamists that do not feel they have to adhere to western values because western values conflict with the Quran. I suppose it really does depend where you live.

Quote:In terms of defending "Islam" I think there's a notable difference between defending Islam as a philosophy, and defending the right of Muslims to participate in our democracy. The two concepts are not the same.

Agreed.

Quote:No problem.

Liberals and leftist defending Muslims is generalization, but far from being completely untrue. As I said I even saw the piece comparing Muslims to Jews. From what I remember I deem Harris critique to be valid but one has to remember what data show - Islamic terrorism is less dangerous to USA than Jewish one - http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims...ca/5333619

Yeah I think Islam's ideology is more of a threat to Europe's humanist values right now than to the US', unquestionably.

Quote:(It's not dig at you or Harris, just general observation).

Of course. Smile New info I have not read is always welcome.

Quote:Yes, I had read it. It deal with couple of european issues like Brexit, Hungary revisionism, France antisemitism or troubles with Muslims. It's interesting but I think that author is somewhat biassed and his claim that living in Germany made him understand Europe (paraphrasing here) is laughable rather than accurate. Overall it's worth reading but should be taken with grain of salt I suppose.

Yeah I read the world news often, and the situation in terms of Islam's influence on politics and daily life in Europe is actually dire.

Here's quick footage of Islamic ideology gone off the rails in the UK. (I've seen hours of this happening all over Europe.)





Choudhry readily states that this particular group he's a part of don't respect the laws of the land that they move to unless they're Islamic, and that anyone who tries to get them to follows western laws can, and I quote, "Go to hell."

Youtube has hours of this nonsense getting totally out of control. Threats of violence and death for questioning the validity of the Muslim religion all over Europe.

Quote:As a pointless aside, I have always hated "my bad".

Oh really? I didn't know that. My Bad.

Quote:I will stand up to fellow liberals if their solution is never say boo ever.

I feel the same way.

Quote:It depends on context of situation and never is not a good plan. That is actually what closed states use to squash dissent, their policy is "never".

Having said that, simply not liking someone else is not enough to keep them from coming here, that is bullshit.

You can attack the claim, attack the reasoning, attack the writing, but it is inhuman to claim everyone who shares a label is automatically going to be evil. If you think like that you are not a blasphemer or a critic, you are a bigot and a demagogue.

Once again I agree. I will attack claims of Islam, not the people.

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26-05-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
@Cosmo

I don't think that islam is seriously threatening European values. Nationalism and playing on the fears to enforce semi-fascist laws (Poland) on the other hand is something that worries me.

I wouldn't say that islam influence is dire. I'm used to hear such sentiments in ultra catholic and increasingly authoritarian Poland and here at least it is nothing more than scare tactics and presenting catholic church as shield against islam.

Youtube movies are hardly a serious proof of something. I agree that Europe might not handle muslims very well but that's far cry from them being dire threat. Increasingly imperialist Russia iscdire threat, fear of terrorism used to restrict freedom is dire threat. Muslims in my opinion are not.

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26-05-2017, 02:29 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:I don't think that islam is seriously threatening European values. Nationalism and playing on the fears to enforce semi-fascist laws (Poland) on the other hand is something that worries me.

That also is worrisome. I hope you're right and that Islam's influence is being played up by different media outlets.

I still think the ideology should be countered with logic and reason wherever it is appropriate to do so.

Quote:I wouldn't say that islam influence is dire. I'm used to hear such sentiments in ultra catholic and increasingly authoritarian Poland and here at least it is nothing more than scare tactics and presenting catholic church as shield against islam.

Oh I see. I can imagine in Poland this is especially true. The Muslim population there is < 1% I believe.

Quote:Youtube movies are hardly a serious proof of something.

This is true for the most part but I think it would depend what you're watching. A video on the Mandela effect by a random noname is different than watching a panel with 6 prestigious scientists discussing the world at large.

Quote: I agree that Europe might not handle muslims very well but that's far cry from them being dire threat. Increasingly imperialist Russia iscdire threat, fear of terrorism used to restrict freedom is dire threat. Muslims in my opinion are not.

Yeah I can see Russia's imperialist tendencies coupled with terrorism being worrisome for sure. Sad

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26-05-2017, 02:51 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
@Cosmo

Extreme ideologies should be fought against. As for islam I see it as another scare just like masons in days past or international Jewish conspiracy cy. For dog sake Jews are responsible for more terror attacks than Muslims (data in earlier post) yet news outlets aren't full of stories about Jews being lethal threat.

As for Poland there aren't much Muslims here but numbers matter not. They can be tweaked or shown as vanguard if there is political need.

I agree in regard to YT.

Lastly it's not terrorism that I'm worried about but gov limiting freedom as a mean to protect us from alleged danger. Terrorist cause less deaths than hunger or car accidents but is more effective as scare tactics to impose limitations on liberties.

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26-05-2017, 03:14 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
Quote:Extreme ideologies should be fought against. As for islam I see it as another scare just like masons in days past or international Jewish conspiracy cy. For dog sake Jews are responsible for more terror attacks than Muslims (data in earlier post) yet news outlets aren't full of stories about Jews being lethal threat.

As for Poland there aren't much Muslims here but numbers matter not. They can be tweaked or shown as vanguard if there is political need.

I will not deny that the media does seem to take more note when Muslims commit acts of terrorism than other religious sects. At least where I'm from. From what I've read however, this ideology, fleshed out around the world, ends up with outcomes that are not conducive to human flourishing, when implemented, more so than other ideologies.

I also would unfortunately, yet vehemently disagree with you that the number of people who hold a specific worldview within a geopolitical area doesn't matter. That sort of information really is important and influences political outcomes regularly.

Quote:Lastly it's not terrorism that I'm worried about but gov limiting freedom as a mean to protect us from alleged danger. Terrorist cause less deaths than hunger or car accidents but is more effective as scare tactics to impose limitations on liberties.

Oh okay I see where you're coming from now. That makes sense.

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26-05-2017, 03:25 PM
RE: Why Does the Far-Left Defend Islam?
@Cosmo

Islam is merely a shadow of monstrousness that was Nazism or Marxism-leninism. They are of days past but to paraphrase Camus rats of pestilence never disappear entirely and so they may yet resurface in slightly different guise.

About numbers I meant something different - low numbers of Muslims in Poland is irrelevant to public fear of them. Numbers matter not when those skilled at playing on other fears start talking, especially when they can claim that low numbers are just first drop of the deluge.

In other ways numbers matter but sometimes when it cames to fear their relevancy wanes.

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