Why God can not exist - logical arguments
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19-06-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(19-06-2014 06:26 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 02:12 AM)mlecyq Wrote:  Here are some arguments why God can not exist and why religion is nonsense:
1. God knows if you go to heaven or hell and you can't change it but still he gives you free will. Logically impossible.
2. God creates something out of nothing- equation 0+0 =1
3. God is immortal and he can commit suicide.
...

More examples, on my youtube video, link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-5M6lgCM8

I think number 1 doesn't work. Just because God is supposed to know in advance what you are going to do with free will does not mean that your actions are determined.

I think all three are not that good and there is a much better one.

The concept of God violates and contradicts every fundamental principle that we know about the universe. Any time you investigate what god is and what are his attributes you wind up with a contradiction. The concept rejects all of the axioms of philosophy including the primacy of existence. The argument from the primacy of existence is irrefutable. It has a built in defense mechanism in that its opponents must accept and use its premises in order to attempt to refute it.

Ring invitation to debate this.
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19-06-2014, 08:45 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(19-06-2014 05:37 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 06:26 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I think number 1 doesn't work. Just because God is supposed to know in advance what you are going to do with free will does not mean that your actions are determined.

I think all three are not that good and there is a much better one.

The concept of God violates and contradicts every fundamental principle that we know about the universe. Any time you investigate what god is and what are his attributes you wind up with a contradiction. The concept rejects all of the axioms of philosophy including the primacy of existence. The argument from the primacy of existence is irrefutable. It has a built in defense mechanism in that its opponents must accept and use its premises in order to attempt to refute it.



Ring invitation to debate this.

No thank you. We already did in two different threads and you didn't even attempt to refute it. You just kept asking me to show how it is true, which I did in detail. Go back and read what I said in the threads "the consolation of atheism" and "split: I want to rant to other atheists" and you will see that not once did you attempt to refute the argument referenced above. I don't think I really have anything else to add. The principles I outlined are fairly simple and easy to understand and they are self evident. You can test any of them yourself at any time and any place.

I actually do not care to convince you. My only concern in debating is the truth. I'll let the readers of those threads come to their own conclusions and I am willing to let reality be the judge.

I do want to apologize for not responding as I said I would to your last response to me on Sunday morning. I went to celebrate fathers day and then I came down with a stomach virus and spent Monday and Tues. puking my guts out. I was going to respond on Wed. but I realized I had said everything I needed to to support my argument. I'm sure we will interact on this issue again in the future but right now I am seriously behind in my work. I am stealing time right now to write this. I don't have time for an extended debate right now as I am working late nights to catch up after losing two full days of production.

Have a good night. I'm back to work.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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19-06-2014, 11:57 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
God cannot exist because:
- God is not made of anything, god has no mechanism for thought, memory, or ability to physically interact with physical existence.
- God cannot have made the decision to create Space and Time because Time is a requirement of making decisions.
- God cannot have been eternally intelligent because existence of data is a requirement of intelligence.
- God cannot be complex because very low entropy entails very low complexity and our universe started out with very low entropy.
- Information theory entails the value of information increases given the lower probability of the information. If God knows everything already (thus the probability of anything that occurs is 1 relative to the god's knowledge) then god cannot receive any useful information, thus god is at equilibrium, blind and impotent.
- God cannot have created man in his image because there is no distinct boundary on man's image, we are all deviations, ever evolving from generation to generation.
- Existence is defined by having an energy state and god does not consist of energy.
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20-06-2014, 07:01 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
This is a great counter-argument against the Kalam Cosmological Argument most "reputable" theists seem to be the proponent of. I'm sure most here know of it, but in case anyone needs any specification, the argument goes along the lines of this:

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
2. A causal loop cannot exist.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

Now, they propose that since the universe has a cause of existence, it needs a cause that cannot be caused (which they assert is god). Now, you must inevitably consider this argument to god (which theists claim is an infinite god) as well. Once you do that, their entire argument shuts down.

Let's assess what I mean. This god here has a thinking process and is infinite (he's a thinking, personal being). Think about what is blatantly wrong with this. God must have had a first thought. If gods thoughts are infinite as he's always existed as the theists claim, how then could his thoughts ever traverse to the moment where he said "let there be light"? That in itself causes an infinite regression! He could never have gotten there according to the arguments reasoning. Therefore, the Kalam has just disproved the existence of an infinite god. Maybe there was a god who itself had a beginning which just sort of begs the question because then where did that god begin? I like to think of it as this, if god can exist without an explanation for his origin then why can't we say that about the universe itself?

Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
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20-06-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(20-06-2014 07:01 PM)Freethought Wrote:  This is a great counter-argument against the Kalam Cosmological Argument most "reputable" theists seem to be the proponent of. I'm sure most here know of it, but in case anyone needs any specification, the argument goes along the lines of this:

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
2. A causal loop cannot exist.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

Now, they propose that since the universe has a cause of existence, it needs a cause that cannot be caused (which they assert is god). Now, you must inevitably consider this argument to god (which theists claim is an infinite god) as well. Once you do that, their entire argument shuts down.

Let's assess what I mean. This god here has a thinking process and is infinite (he's a thinking, personal being). Think about what is blatantly wrong with this. God must have had a first thought. If gods thoughts are infinite as he's always existed as the theists claim, how then could his thoughts ever traverse to the moment where he said "let there be light"? That in itself causes an infinite regression! He could never have gotten there according to the arguments reasoning. Therefore, the Kalam has just disproved the existence of an infinite god. Maybe there was a god who itself had a beginning which just sort of begs the question because then where did that god begin? I like to think of it as this, if god can exist without an explanation for his origin then why can't we say that about the universe itself?

That bears no resemblance to the Kalam.
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20-06-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(19-06-2014 05:37 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 06:26 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I think number 1 doesn't work. Just because God is supposed to know in advance what you are going to do with free will does not mean that your actions are determined.

I think all three are not that good and there is a much better one.

The concept of God violates and contradicts every fundamental principle that we know about the universe. Any time you investigate what god is and what are his attributes you wind up with a contradiction. The concept rejects all of the axioms of philosophy including the primacy of existence. The argument from the primacy of existence is irrefutable. It has a built in defense mechanism in that its opponents must accept and use its premises in order to attempt to refute it.

Ring invitation to debate this.

Liar.
Didn't you say yesterday you were not starting yet MORE debate threads ?
Get lost spam troll.
Or is your drug induced dementia rearing it's ugly head.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-06-2014, 10:00 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(20-06-2014 07:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  That bears no resemblance to the Kalam.


Please explain how rather than just stating something without backing it up.

Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
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20-06-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(19-06-2014 06:26 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 02:12 AM)mlecyq Wrote:  Here are some arguments why God can not exist and why religion is nonsense:
1. God knows if you go to heaven or hell and you can't change it but still he gives you free will. Logically impossible.
2. God creates something out of nothing- equation 0+0 =1
3. God is immortal and he can commit suicide.
...

More examples, on my youtube video, link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-5M6lgCM8

I think number 1 doesn't work. Just because God is supposed to know in advance what you are going to do with free will does not mean that your actions are determined.

I think all three are not that good and there is a much better one.

The concept of God violates and contradicts every fundamental principle that we know about the universe. Any time you investigate what god is and what are his attributes you wind up with a contradiction. The concept rejects all of the axioms of philosophy including the primacy of existence. The argument from the primacy of existence is irrefutable. It has a built in defense mechanism in that its opponents must accept and use its premises in order to attempt to refute it.

I think number 1 still holds... If God knows your future, and knows that you will inevitably commit x sins in your life, yet still punishes you... That's completely at odds with the idea of free will.

If your future is predetermined, then you have no freedom to change it.

However, you could phrase it as "God knows all your possible futures and judges you on your decisions." Which would be consistent with free will and self determination.

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21-06-2014, 06:47 AM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(19-06-2014 05:37 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Ring invitation to debate this.

Are you now open to debates again?

Or just picking and choosing the subjects which promote your agenda?
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21-06-2014, 07:03 AM
RE: Why God can not exist - logical arguments
(21-06-2014 06:47 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 05:37 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Ring invitation to debate this.

Are you now open to debates again?

Or just picking and choosing the subjects which promote your agenda?

I'd hate for him to miss this post.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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