Why I Believe
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06-04-2017, 07:35 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 03:03 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I would be very interested in trying to answer some glaring contradictions you have found in the bible.

How about the glaring contradiction of a person who claims to have had traumatic experiences with Christian teachings who manipulates the compassion of others and then turns around seeking to justify those teachings?

Oh yeah, that ain't really a contradiction, it's just typical Christian bullshit. Dodgy

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06-04-2017, 07:37 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 03:03 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I would be very interested in trying to answer some glaring contradictions you have found in the bible.
Not really a contradictions, but how does one man gather all the animals on the earth, [Including Dinosaurs if you believe that as well], and fit them into one boat?

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06-04-2017, 07:54 AM
RE: Why I Believe
The bottom line is, if someone cannot emotionally let go of an idea, they will make any excuse to rationalise it. If they dig their heels in, they would rather bend reality all the way around it than step back and consider what they're actually defending. I've seen it time and again, with all sorts of bizarre ideas.

Is it a golden castle or a dog turd you're guarding? Where the bible's concerned, it's closer to the second. Much of it has to do with how it's alright to kill people as long as the right voice in your head is telling you to do it.

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06-04-2017, 08:06 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2017 08:14 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 03:03 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I thought it might be useful to list the 2 main reasons why I believe (other than fear). I regularly hear two complaints against the bible, (i) it's plain wrong on certain facts (I'll use the creation story in Genesis) and (ii) it's full of contradictions:

1. I do not believe the creation story in Genesis was intended to be read as a scientific paper. As Galileo once said (I think) "The bible teaches us how to go to heaven not how the heavens go."

So when I hear people saying things "how can you believe in Christianity when the bible claims the earth was made before the sun?, or "the bible can't decide if man was made before or after the beasts[/i[", it doesn't have much of an effect on me. The two accounts of creation in Genesis are known and believed to be different and the explanation is that they are two different styles in telling the creation account. Also, I ask myself, the two creation stories are very different in parts, to the point where the author(s) [i]must have realised this. If so, why wasn't anything edited? I think it is because the different styles were intended, or at least, not seen as problematic.

2. Of all the contradictions mentioned in the bible, I really believe that most are......dare I say it......taken out of context or can easily be explained away. I'll list two examples:

“And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen” (I Kings 4:26)

“And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen” (II Chronicles 9:25)

One passage tells of the number of horses while the other tells of the number of stalls for horses and chariots. They had ten horses and ten men per chariot. The same ratio is seen in

II Samuel 10:18 “And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians.”

I Chronicles 19:18 “But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots.”

And

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James, is speaking of the sanctification element which is also a part of the salvation process. We are saved by faith alone, but faith is not alone. Real faith produces real works. If Christians do not have real works then they do not have real faith.

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Paul in Galatians is speaking of the root or the initiation of salvation. We are saved (in this sense) by faith alone. Our works cannot bring us into that initial entrance of a relationship with Christ.

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I would be very interested in trying to answer some glaring contradictions you have found in the bible. I'll do the legwork, you just post them. It's been a good few number of years since I looked into this but I'm absolutely certain there are some (lots) I haven't heard of. Please though, don't post numerous contradictions, just post one or two you think are real howlers. It's always been in the back of my mind that I'm ok with the so called contradictions, so perhaps it's time to put that to the test.

I could go to the sceptics annotated bible or other similar sites, but I'd just get swamped by the amount of information there. That's why I'd like you to post your choice contradictions so I can see if I can figure them out.

Also, any opinions you have on my view of the two creation accounts in Genesis would be interesting too.

Thanks all.

EDIT: I'm honestly not trying to preach here, I am doing this for me to look at what I believe and see if it really stands up to scrutiny.

"1. I do not believe the creation story in Genesis was intended to be read as a scientific paper. As Galileo once said (I think) "The bible teaches us how to go to heaven not how the heavens go.""

Considering that science as a method and field of study didn't exist until long after such stories were written, it clearly can't have been meant to be read as a scientific paper. That isn't the question. The question is whether or not it was meant to be read as literally true. If so, then it is demonstrably false. If not, then why are these stories not described as such by god and/or the authors? These stories read like myths. Myths that people once believed as true. Because what else would they have believed? What other information would they have had available to them beyond what they could imagine? Is it any surprise that humans constructed a story about a being creating something considering when a common occurrence in human lives is for humans to create things? It is probably the only thing that made any sense to them, but that doesn't mean it is literally or metaphorically true.

My question is why do people read the writings of Bronze Age man and expect to find truths about the universe in the first place? The bible (and other books like it) are great places to learn about the people who wrote them and shared the stories and believed in the stories, but they don't tell us how the universe or Earth or life came into being. We have only recently advanced our understanding and knowledge enough to try and answer these questions, so how could Bronze Age man have gotten the answers correct?

"2. Of all the contradictions mentioned in the bible, I really believe that most are......dare I say it......taken out of context or can easily be explained away. I'll list two examples:"

This is simply a bullshit excuse for dismissing contradictions. There are multiple books written and edited by numerous (primarily by unknown authors) people who were doing so independent of one another. If these stories are man-made, one would expect contradictions and that is what we find. Trying to reinterpret away the contradictions is confirmation bias.

"EDIT: I'm honestly not trying to preach here, I am doing this for me to look at what I believe and see if it really stands up to scrutiny."

What you need to realize is that you still are preaching. I think what you are going to find is that these religious stories and excuses can't and won't hold up to scrutiny.

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06-04-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Why I Believe
I love how these guys think they are the first Christian to come in pretending to be a doubter only to try to preach.
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06-04-2017, 09:11 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 03:15 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Okay then, apply that same reasoning to the Book of Mormon and the Quran. Then tell us how well it goes when you try to rectify the claims of mutual exclusivity.

I mean, cause if this line of reasoning is good enough for the Bible, why apply a different standard to the Book of Mormon or the Quran? What justification do you have to treat the Christian Bible so, but no other holy books? Have you even tried exploring other religions, or did you just default to the cultural norm?
You mean if I apply this reasoning to the bible I should apply it to other religious texts too?

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06-04-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 09:11 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 03:15 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Okay then, apply that same reasoning to the Book of Mormon and the Quran. Then tell us how well it goes when you try to rectify the claims of mutual exclusivity.

I mean, cause if this line of reasoning is good enough for the Bible, why apply a different standard to the Book of Mormon or the Quran? What justification do you have to treat the Christian Bible so, but no other holy books? Have you even tried exploring other religions, or did you just default to the cultural norm?
You mean if I apply this reasoning to the bible I should apply it to other religious texts too?

If an argument you use to justify belief in the Christian god and the Bible are used by other religions to justify other religious texts and the existence of other gods, then your arguments are not sufficient to prove your point.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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06-04-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 03:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  Before we go into Bible contradictions, why should one care what the Bible says at all? It's just priestly bullshit. Where's the evidence that your God even exists?

Christians seem to love to gloss over this shit and skip straight to analysing the Bible itself and they've invented all sorts of fun excuses on that side of things - "It's not really a contradiction", "You need to read it in the original Hebrew", "There's no evidence that it *couldn't* have happened that way" blah blah blah.

But all of that stuff is utterly meaningless if your God doesn't exist in the first place. So start with that. Show evidence that God exists. Otherwise all that other nit-picky stuff is just people arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin - completely pointless.
But this is how I do that. By checking facts against what the bible says. I have to arrive at any decision after apply some amount of research and that's why I am looking into the contradictions and stuff. I can't show evidence God exists, so I am examining the bible to see if it is true by testing its claims. If I find holes in the bible, that will tell me Christianity is not real.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-04-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 09:11 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 03:15 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Okay then, apply that same reasoning to the Book of Mormon and the Quran. Then tell us how well it goes when you try to rectify the claims of mutual exclusivity.

I mean, cause if this line of reasoning is good enough for the Bible, why apply a different standard to the Book of Mormon or the Quran? What justification do you have to treat the Christian Bible so, but no other holy books? Have you even tried exploring other religions, or did you just default to the cultural norm?
You mean if I apply this reasoning to the bible I should apply it to other religious texts too?
Sure, why not? What are you afraid of? Shy

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06-04-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 09:13 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 03:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  Before we go into Bible contradictions, why should one care what the Bible says at all? It's just priestly bullshit. Where's the evidence that your God even exists?

Christians seem to love to gloss over this shit and skip straight to analysing the Bible itself and they've invented all sorts of fun excuses on that side of things - "It's not really a contradiction", "You need to read it in the original Hebrew", "There's no evidence that it *couldn't* have happened that way" blah blah blah.

But all of that stuff is utterly meaningless if your God doesn't exist in the first place. So start with that. Show evidence that God exists. Otherwise all that other nit-picky stuff is just people arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin - completely pointless.
But this is how I do that. By checking facts against what the bible says. I have to arrive at any decision after apply some amount of research and that's why I am looking into the contradictions and stuff. I can't show evidence God exists, so I am examining the bible to see if it is true by testing its claims.

But you start off with the assumption that the Bible contains true information (or potentially contains true information) about the universe. Have you ever verified that it actually does? You have to be critical of the source of the claims FIRST.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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