Why I Believe
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21-05-2017, 02:19 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 12:03 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  SeaJay, you really, really need to learn about the history of the concept of Hell, and how it's not actually in the Bible in the way we see it today. It's a combination of pagan traditions absorbed into Christianity over time, and poor translations. There are several excellent books and even YouTube videos on the subject. Once you see how our modern concept of hell was literally invented long after the death of Jesus, and how the things Jesus was talking about were not the "Hell" we think he means when we read the verses in English, you'll be surprised at how silly it is that this goes mostly unchallenged among average believers. Now, religious scholars recognize this, but sadly there are very few Christians, even preachers, who actually listen to the honest scholars, but tune them out instead in favor of the ones in their tiny, denominational thought-bubble.
Thanks RS76, I've delved a bit into the whole hell construction concept, not to any great extent, but enough to realise that it has evolved over time. Even the bible points to it being an evolved doctrine. But my fear is on a subconscious psychological level that I am finding difficult to shift. I'll continue researching though and hopefully I'll be rid of the fear sooner rather than later.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-05-2017, 02:23 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 12:20 AM)morondog Wrote:  You really baffle me. It's about believing what's true, amigo. Can you honestly say that you believe Christianity is true? Forget the fear part. If I tell you I will shoot you if you don't believe that Hinduism is the true religion, you may well *say* that, just to appease me, but will you really believe it? In your heart of hearts will you actually think that all that Shiva and Kali stuff somehow makes sense? Purely based off my threat to kill you? What if instead of threatening you directly I say that unless you believe Kali will come to torture you after you die? (I know very little of Hinduism, I picked it as a contrast to any of the standard "Abrahamic" faiths we use as examples all the time.)
It baffles me too morondog, trust me. It baffles me and frustrates me. This fear is deep inside of me to the point I'm having therapy because of it. That's how ingrained it is. It worries me so much that it interferes with my logical thinking process. It's like trying to fix a busted hard drive with broken tools. I think the logic side is winning though.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-05-2017, 03:19 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 02:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(21-05-2017 12:20 AM)morondog Wrote:  You really baffle me. It's about believing what's true, amigo. Can you honestly say that you believe Christianity is true? Forget the fear part. If I tell you I will shoot you if you don't believe that Hinduism is the true religion, you may well *say* that, just to appease me, but will you really believe it? In your heart of hearts will you actually think that all that Shiva and Kali stuff somehow makes sense? Purely based off my threat to kill you? What if instead of threatening you directly I say that unless you believe Kali will come to torture you after you die? (I know very little of Hinduism, I picked it as a contrast to any of the standard "Abrahamic" faiths we use as examples all the time.)
It baffles me too morondog, trust me. It baffles me and frustrates me. This fear is deep inside of me to the point I'm having therapy because of it. That's how ingrained it is. It worries me so much that it interferes with my logical thinking process. It's like trying to fix a busted hard drive with broken tools. I think the logic side is winning though.

But what do you think is true? This Christian God plus hell thing, or the no-God viewpoint? You should be able to evaluate that?

I mean, even if under duress, if someone asks you if you think the Moon is a giant rabbit called Marcus, you're not going to seriously entertain the thought right? And conversely, if under duress someone asks you if the Moon is a giant ball of rock orbiting at a distance of approximately 300 000 km from Earth, that remains true regardless of the fact that you were forced to concede that. So the threat is independent of the truth of the claim.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-05-2017, 03:22 AM
RE: Why I Believe
SeaJay in order to feel pain you require a functioning nervous system, that ends at death so there is no need to fear a fiery torment.
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21-05-2017, 04:10 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 03:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(21-05-2017 02:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  It baffles me too morondog, trust me. It baffles me and frustrates me. This fear is deep inside of me to the point I'm having therapy because of it. That's how ingrained it is. It worries me so much that it interferes with my logical thinking process. It's like trying to fix a busted hard drive with broken tools. I think the logic side is winning though.

But what do you think is true? This Christian God plus hell thing, or the no-God viewpoint? You should be able to evaluate that?
The way I see it, there are three possibilities:

1. I believe it is true
2. I believe it is not true
3. I am unsure either way

(21-05-2017 03:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  I mean, even if under duress, if someone asks you if you think the Moon is a giant rabbit called Marcus, you're not going to seriously entertain the thought right?
Correct

(21-05-2017 03:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  And conversely, if under duress someone asks you if the Moon is a giant ball of rock orbiting at a distance of approximately 300 000 km from Earth, that remains true regardless of the fact that you were forced to concede that.
Agreed

(21-05-2017 03:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  So the threat is independent of the truth of the claim.
If I follow your logic (and there's nothing wrong with it as I see it), I see four options:

(a) I believe
(b) I don't believe
(c ) I am too scared to admit to myself I don't believe
(d) I am unsure

Options (a) and (b) are not really options for me right now because I am honestly not at that point. I don't think option © is a realistic option either because I don't think I could kid myself that I do believe if I really did not.

So for me, I would again have to go with being unsure (d).

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-05-2017, 04:12 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 03:22 AM)adey67 Wrote:  SeaJay in order to feel pain you require a functioning nervous system, that ends at death so there is no need to fear a fiery torment.
True. But the Christian belief is that people are resurrected and then judged worthy of either heaven or hell. This is how we would feel pain because we'd have our bodies back after the resurrection.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-05-2017, 05:38 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 04:12 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(21-05-2017 03:22 AM)adey67 Wrote:  SeaJay in order to feel pain you require a functioning nervous system, that ends at death so there is no need to fear a fiery torment.
True. But the Christian belief is that people are resurrected and then judged worthy of either heaven or hell. This is how we would feel pain because we'd have our bodies back after the resurrection.

A physical body existing in an a non physical hinterland its a crazy non sensical doctrine and not a universal belief among Christians. If we cannot see a heaven or hell or enter while in our current corporeal state then how is it possible in a resurrected body with nerves flesh blood and bone ? The huge number of hoops and crazy apologetics you have to jump through should set off huge alarm bells for you.
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21-05-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 04:12 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(21-05-2017 03:22 AM)adey67 Wrote:  SeaJay in order to feel pain you require a functioning nervous system, that ends at death so there is no need to fear a fiery torment.
True. But the Christian belief is that people are resurrected and then judged worthy of either heaven or hell. This is how we would feel pain because we'd have our bodies back after the resurrection.

But if your body is thrown into a lake of fire and turned to ash, then you won't have that body after a few seconds. Eternal fires can only burn eternally reconstituted bodies. Since this is an irrational belief, we can create an irrational workaround.

Your physical body will be reconstituted after this judgement, it will be thrown into a lake of fire, so the pain will be intense for a few seconds and then your body will be consumed, so then it will be over, god will declare that you've paid for all of your alleged slights against him. (poor wittle god)

Then you're free to go about your business and travel around the universe in incorporeal form. How do I know this? Well, ghosts of course!

Does it make sense? No, it doesn't have to. Big Grin

My little story makes as much sense as the Christian one though, however it has some better features:

1. Your physical body is consumed by a physical fire in a few seconds, which is consistent with science.

2. You experience an intense, yet quick amount of pain and will not be tortured for eternity for "original sin" or any other bizarre reason.

So my story is more consistent with the real world and is more compassionate than the bizarre world of Christian torture porn. Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-05-2017, 01:40 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 04:10 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  So for me, I would again have to go with being unsure (d).

Right, so you're unsure if Christianity is true (whatever that means, among the myriad interpretations of what the tenets of Christianity really are) or if it is false. Which is cool. Except that the thought of it being true seems to give you some real distress.

I suggest a bit of reading up on critical thinking Wink You'll be alright. Just equip yourself with the tools for the job before you go spelunking, you'll figure it out. Don't stress. Jesus saves, but Occam's razor shaves.

I'll do the big reveal now so it's not a surprise, but applying ye tools what I did aforemention, Christianity in all its forms turns out to be one stinking pile of crud.

1. The scriptures come from god-knows-where, because their history is a convoluted mess of human error.
2. There's no smoking gun evidence that any of the gospel shit took place as described, and plenty of reason to think it didn't.
3. Modern day shit cited as evidence for God stinks to high heaven. It's all bullshit to the last drop.
4. Ancient shit stinks even worse.
5. At the very most, someone who argues for a deistic "watchmaker" deity who signals the kick-off is hard to argue with, but even such a deity is one fuck off big assumption and not in any way evidence based.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-05-2017, 02:18 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-05-2017 01:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  5. At the very most, someone who argues for a deistic "watchmaker" deity who signals the kick-off is hard to argue with, but even such a deity is one fuck off big assumption and not in any way evidence based.

Ah yes, the deistic God, creator of hydrogen and helium.

Hobo
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