Why I Believe
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07-04-2017, 01:40 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Ok and that's fair enough

The reason there is so much bad in the world is because sin entered the world when Adam and Eve transgressed. Earthquakes, floods, flash fires, rape, murder, pedophilia, cancer, jealousy, robbery, you name it.
Who is all powerful, created all of reality, but did/does nothing against this?
Who is all knowing, and did nothing in advance to avoid this?
Who is the creator of everything, including sin?
Who made the rules of this game and is responsible for "knowing some stuff" being original sin?

(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Premise: Suffering occurs because Adam and Eve disobeyed in the Garden of Eden
Conclusion: Suffering happens because bad stuff happened thousands of years ago.

Is this flawed circular reasoning? Sounds like it
If they disobey gods will. Was/is he all powerful? Or all knowing? How can they disobey an all knowing god?

(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Also, it's a way too inconvenient hand wave of the entire situation. "Sin entered the world and that's why we have suffering."
Who created everything, sin and our ability to suffer included?

(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I can't help think that an omnipotent and omniscient creator could have done things differently.
Exactly!


(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I'll bet somewhere down the line I'd hear "Sure, but if we are given the solution to all our problems then what have we learned?"
Possible, and sarcastic, answer to this nonsense: So unspeakable suffering over thousands of years to uncounted numbers of human souls was necessary and the best an benevolent and all powerful god could come up with?

(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  To which I might reply "Nothing. But you are arguing from the viewpoint that we are suffering from a transgression in the garden of Eden. I am asking couldn't all mighty creator have created a bajillion other realities in which we might grow and learn, and not suffer cancer, suffering, rape, and burning in agony forever?
Exactly!

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07-04-2017, 01:46 AM
RE: Why I Believe
The way to get out of the house is to drop all assumptions, every single one, and slowly build things up again based solely on proper evidence.

Re-examine every assumption you ever make. Is it necessary to assume this in order to function? Is there grounds to make this assumption?

Religion works by programming people from an early age, so they don't even realize they're making a butt load of assumptions before they start their thought patterns.

I discuss this more below, admittedly with a pillow on my head.




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07-04-2017, 01:54 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 01:34 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I don't think you're here to preach. Honest back and forths are totally fine. It's just people who ignore what we say and keep on spouting their own stuff that is unacceptable.

It seems to me that when you're offering what you feel are the standard religious responses to objections, you're starting to see the gaping holes in them.
Thank you, that's a bit of relief!

(07-04-2017 01:34 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  The idea of "salvation" is mental. What are we being saved from? God. We're being saved from God fucking us up in hell. So he's "saving" us from himself, by ordering us around. Or rather, people are ordering other people around, claiming God told them to do it.
But we are saved from sin and from our own sinful nature. We deserve punishment and endless punishment. So why is the punishment so severe? The punishment fits the crime because we are sinning against an eternal being. Eternal being eternal justice eternal punishment.

That is what I have actually read in the past. No reason other than we need saving because we are born sinful/evil/bad/wrong. And because God is eternal the we our sin against him is eternal, hence the eternal punishment.

What about (assuming it is all true) eternal mercy and eternal forgiveness and eternal love?

God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves to hell. Not they don't. Perhaps people not in their right mind might - and even then.

You have free will. Send yourself to hell or heaven the choice yours. But that's not a choice. That's like someone pointing a gun to your head and saying "You are free to love me or not love me. But if you don't love me I will shoot you in the head."

But back to the question, it seems we need saving because that's the plan. Wasn't it Hitchens who said born sick and commanded to get well?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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07-04-2017, 01:56 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 01:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  But back to the question, it seems we need saving because that's the plan. Wasn't it Hitchens who said born sick and commanded to get well?

You only need to assume there is a plan if you stay inside the house. Wink

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07-04-2017, 01:57 AM
RE: Why I Believe
I'm really impressed with your thinking Smile You're doing so well! You're stopping and challenging things that have been drilled into your head. That is a massive deal. So many people never do that in their whole life, and die believing the same things they were told as a child.

Yeah, God "plans" us to all be disgusting evil creatures so he can save us. Hero complex? What the hell is God even doing? Screwing about, it seems. Why did he make any of this?

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07-04-2017, 02:02 AM
RE: Why I Believe
When I talk to people, I just want them to think. I don't expect people to just agree with me. I wouldn't even want someone to agree with me, just because I'm saying it. I want them to stop and think things over. Look at things from every available perspective. If that means they eventually agree with what I'm saying, then great! If not, then that's fine too. What I can't stand is when people plug their ears.

You're really thinking, and that's a rare quality. It's a natural behaviour to try and preserve and defend beliefs, however dumb they may be. It takes guts to challenge them.

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07-04-2017, 02:04 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 12:14 PM)kim Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 12:03 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  In the opposite scenario, mofo would already be banned, yet atheists (you know, soulless minions of satan and shit) are still offering compassion.

Yeah, I ain't getting it. Fool me once and all...

Have fun with that. Dodgy

The ape tries to scuttle up the mountain for Tao and all he gets is the crummy WWJD? tee shirt?

Come now, Prophet ... where have thee placed thy *faith? Angel

In you cats. Wink

I'm a community operator, I feel just as accomplished by being a part of this community as I would if I were the one making the brilliant and compassionate post. Heart

Also, I'm not up the mountain 'cause I'm wise, but rather that I'm too fat and lazy to climb back down. Big Grin

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07-04-2017, 02:04 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 01:57 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm really impressed with your thinking Smile You're doing so well! You're stopping and challenging things that have been drilled into your head. That is a massive deal. So many people never do that in their whole life, and die believing the same things they were told as a child.
Thank you

(07-04-2017 01:57 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, God "plans" us to all be disgusting evil creatures so he can save us. Hero complex? What the hell is God even doing? Screwing about, it seems. Why did he make any of this?
Over the last couple of years, I've often wondered if I am a Christian with doubts or an agnostic.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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07-04-2017, 02:42 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 01:31 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 01:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  SeaJay, you're still mucking around with silly contradictions I see.
Ok, but if you think I am doing so to preach, that isn't correct. I was in a discussion and questions were asked. I said I did not want to reply and give my explanation as to why I had that explanation, in fear it would be seen as preaching. I apologise if that's not what you are implying (I'm just getting a little paranoid Smile )
So far you seem to be one of those terribly earnest types who's desperately trying to make sense of it all etc. I was one once. Preachy types tend to come out with "and we're all sinners and need the love of Christ" or similar bullshit, and yeah, if you do that we'll do our best to tear you a new one Big Grin But I was more referring to EK's point that you're trapped in this mindset of looking for answers in the Bible, whereas you haven't actually critically examined whether the Bible is a good place to look for answers.

Quote:
(07-04-2017 01:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Let's say for the sake of argument that there are no unresolvable contradictions in the Bible. Please tell me, on what basis do you conclude that there's a God?
This is a great point. Even if the writings in the bible had no ambiguities, it wouldn't be evidence of anything than a well written book
Yup, which means that God requires more evidence than a book to believe in. As an example, let's say that in Pompei there is discovered a perfectly preserved, seemingly factual account of a voyage to the moon, written circa 50 AD or whenever Pompei went up in smoke. Can we conclude from this that someone went to the moon? Not on that basis alone. We would look at for example, what's described in the book and what the moon actually looks like. Maybe if there was an account or picture of the dark side of the moon (the side which faces away from Earth) that would be hard evidence that someone had to have been there, since there's no way to see that from Earth. But the point is you don't look at the internal consistency of the book for evidence that it describes an external reality.

Quote:I am now of a mind that Pascal's Wager isn't a realistic view to hold to.
Congratulations Smile

Quote:True. If I had been born in Kuwait I'd be a Muslim perhaps.
I mean there's a slim chance you could still be a Christian, there is some church presence there...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-04-2017, 02:55 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 02:04 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 01:57 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm really impressed with your thinking Smile You're doing so well! You're stopping and challenging things that have been drilled into your head. That is a massive deal. So many people never do that in their whole life, and die believing the same things they were told as a child.
Thank you

(07-04-2017 01:57 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, God "plans" us to all be disgusting evil creatures so he can save us. Hero complex? What the hell is God even doing? Screwing about, it seems. Why did he make any of this?
Over the last couple of years, I've often wondered if I am a Christian with doubts or an agnostic.

Some people find that they transition to deism when coming out of religion. They still feel there is "a creator" but that it can't be any of the dumb versions put forward by religion, and doesn't appear to be interacting with us in any way at all.

I wouldn't worry too much about labels. In my mind, being a Christian is a choice though. Even if I believed in everything the bible said, I wouldn't be a Christian. I think it's a disgusting immoral book, and I'd just be depressed that such an evil monster is in charge. I decide for myself how to live my life, I don't take orders. Luckily, there's no evidence that any of it is more than a fairy tale that has been passed on by indoctrination through the generations.

I find religions irrelevant, whether they are true or not. I just use my brain.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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