Why I Believe
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07-04-2017, 05:18 AM
RE: Why I Believe
SeaJay
Congrats on taking the steps to free your mind of this religious mess.

Despite your own fear, you are thinking your way through it, using critical thinking.

Bravo

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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07-04-2017, 05:24 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Ok and that's fair enough

The reason there is so much bad in the world is because sin entered the world when Adam and Eve transgressed. Earthquakes, floods, flash fires, rape, murder, pedophilia, cancer, jealousy, robbery, you name it.

The problem I have with this argument is that I don't know how to refute it. Let me try

Premise: Suffering occurs because Adam and Eve disobeyed in the Garden of Eden
Conclusion: Suffering happens because bad stuff happened thousands of years ago.

Is this flawed circular reasoning? Sounds like it

Also, it's a way too inconvenient hand wave of the entire situation. "Sin entered the world and that's why we have suffering."

It's an explanation (the machine broke down and that's why it isn't working right now - it has to be fixed), but I don't think it is fair. Everyone (theist and atheist) seems to be punished for something that happened thousands of years ago.

Then I hear "but we are sinners ourselves". Ok, but aren't I 'sinner' because of someone else's disobedience thousands of years ago?

I can't help think that an omnipotent and omniscient creator could have done things differently. I'll bet somewhere down the line I'd hear "Sure, but if we are given the solution to all our problems then what have we learned?" To which I might reply "Nothing. But you are arguing from the viewpoint that we are suffering from a transgression in the garden of Eden. I am asking couldn't all mighty creator have created a bajillion other realities in which we might grow and learn, and not suffer cancer, suffering, rape, and burning in agony forever?

Science shows that there was no Adam and Eve. The story is bullshit fro the get-go.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-04-2017, 05:26 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 12:49 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 12:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  What exactly is the justification that Christians give for this original sin stuff? It's certainly not native to the Jewish theology. It was introduced to Christianity much later after they had branched off.
I'm really not sure. I think the reasoning goes something like, when sin entered the world it changed Adam and Eve in a way that we now inherit their sinful genes/dna. Or something

Yeah, or something. Facepalm

There was no Adam and Eve. Sin is non-existent. There is no sinful DNA.

This is all invented and has no basis in reality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-04-2017, 05:28 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 01:09 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 12:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  First off, why assume the claims of Christianity are true? Why should you assume that the claims of souls and original sin are true? Other faiths don't adhere to the Christian ideas of souls or sin.
I have to assume Christianity is true because I am trying to see if I can tear it down. If I assume Christianity is not true, then I ask myself why I assume it isn't true. Assuming Christianity is true forms the basis for my subsequent research.

No, that's not the way it works.

You don't make either assumption. You look for evidence of the claims and when you find none, you reject the claims.

Pro tip: There is no evidence that Christianity is true.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-04-2017, 05:30 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 01:33 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 01:22 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That assumes that salvation is itself necessary.

While I appreciate your honesty, I do have to tell you that you are operating upon a layer of unfounded assumptions. You are doing your best to figure out why the house is sinking from studying how slanted all of the picture frames are relative to your level, while everyone else is trying to convince themselves that everything is still square, and it is you that is askew.

Meanwhile the rest of us are outside and across the street, noting how the house was built upon a foundation of quicksand that simply cannot support the weight of the structure placed upon it. Your perspective will always be very limited, so long as you never leave the house.
But how do I learn to leave the house?

By applying reason and skepticism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-04-2017, 05:47 AM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2017 10:40 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 12:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Ok and that's fair enough

The reason there is so much bad in the world is because sin entered the world when Adam and Eve transgressed. Earthquakes, floods, flash fires, rape, murder, pedophilia, cancer, jealousy, robbery, you name it.

The problem I have with this argument is that I don't know how to refute it. Let me try

Premise: Suffering occurs because Adam and Eve disobeyed in the Garden of Eden
Conclusion: Suffering happens because bad stuff happened thousands of years ago.

Is this flawed circular reasoning? Sounds like it

Also, it's a way too inconvenient hand wave of the entire situation. "Sin entered the world and that's why we have suffering."

It's an explanation (the machine broke down and that's why it isn't working right now - it has to be fixed), but I don't think it is fair. Everyone (theist and atheist) seems to be punished for something that happened thousands of years ago.

Then I hear "but we are sinners ourselves". Ok, but aren't I 'sinner' because of someone else's disobedience thousands of years ago?

I can't help think that an omnipotent and omniscient creator could have done things differently. I'll bet somewhere down the line I'd hear "Sure, but if we are given the solution to all our problems then what have we learned?" To which I might reply "Nothing. But you are arguing from the viewpoint that we are suffering from a transgression in the garden of Eden. I am asking couldn't all mighty creator have created a bajillion other realities in which we might grow and learn, and not suffer cancer, suffering, rape, and burning in agony forever?

This is usually the explanation given for suffering in the world, the entire Christian world view depends on the Adamic myth where suffering is linked to humans.

This is where the Christian world view falsifies itself and scientific evidence blows it out of the water. Do you really think earthquakes, floods, cancer, etc. only came about after Adam ate that apple 6000 years ago?

Timeline of Mass Extinction Events on Earth



Dinosaurs suffered from cancer too


The entire myth of the fall of man is hokum with a mountain of evidence that humanity did not cause suffering and disease, it simply is not linked to humans.


First Dinosaur Brain Tumor Found, Experts Suggest


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Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-04-2017, 05:54 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 10:41 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  If someone could prove to me my so called solutions were wrong, then this would move me one step closer to eroding my belief.

No. Stop. You are doing it wrong. You already know that a consistent story does not mean that it is anything more than a well-written story. Stop trying to show that there are holes in the plot and start trying to show that the story is a record of reality.

(07-04-2017 01:09 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I have to assume Christianity is true because I am trying to see if I can tear it down. If I assume Christianity is not true, then I ask myself why I assume it isn't true. Assuming Christianity is true forms the basis for my subsequent research.

Why not assume Greek mythology is true? How about Egyptian mythology? Maybe Aesop's fables are the best starting point?

It isn't that you have to assume that Christianity is not true, it is that you have to start with what is demonstrably true and see how well Christianity aligns to that. You can think of Christianity as a hypothesis that has been handed to you and your job is to determine if it is true or not without assuming either position at the outset. Now your job is to see if the claims of Christianity are supported by scientific evidence from biology, geology, paleontology, and other areas and if the predictions made by Christianity are reliable.

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07-04-2017, 06:08 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 01:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  But we are saved from sin and from our own sinful nature. We deserve punishment and endless punishment. So why is the punishment so severe? The punishment fits the crime because we are sinning against an eternal being. Eternal being eternal justice eternal punishment.
Who made us sinful, knowing very well that we would sin? If you train your pitbull to attack people and your pitbull attakcs people, who is responsible? No, the pitbull did not have free will, because you conditioned him. Tongue
Do you , personally, think this system is moral?
Do you think "sinning for a lifetime warrants eternal punishment"?
Can you honestly look at your newborn child (or if you dont have any, the child of your sibling, or any newborn for that matter, and say "you are evil and deserve eternal puishment. Can.you?

Why should any violation of any rule of an eternal being be worth of eternal punishment? Just because that being is eternal? Just because it is more powerful than you? What makes it right? Might?
Who claims the punishment fits the crime? God? Or someone claiming to speak for god?

(07-04-2017 01:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  That is what I have actually read in the past. No reason other than we need saving because we are born sinful/evil/bad/wrong. And because God is eternal the we our sin against him is eternal, hence the eternal punishment.
Do you think that was a good "reason"(ing)? Is that a reason at all, to just claim it is this way, period?
Why should our sin against him be eternal? Because he is eternally angry? He cant endure a mere mortal being sinning against him? Should an elephant be angry at an ant? What can an ant do to an elephant to warrant the elephant stomping it...for eternity?

(07-04-2017 01:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  What about (assuming it is all true) eternal mercy and eternal forgiveness and eternal love?
Is eternally being pissed, because a human sinned by just merely existing for a lifetime, being merciful? Do you think it speaks of forgiveness or love?

(07-04-2017 01:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves to hell. Not they don't. Perhaps people not in their right mind might - and even then.
Exactly! Just as people dont break their own legs when they dont pay interest to their "Don".

(07-04-2017 01:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  You have free will. Send yourself to hell or heaven the choice yours. But that's not a choice. That's like someone pointing a gun to your head and saying "You are free to love me or not love me. But if you don't love me I will shoot you in the head."
We dont have free will, if god made us sinful. We cannot completely avoid to sin if he made us that way. So, who is responsbile for us being sinful?
You are absolutely correct. Think for yourself! Thumbsup

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07-04-2017, 06:17 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 05:54 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 10:41 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  If someone could prove to me my so called solutions were wrong, then this would move me one step closer to eroding my belief.

No. Stop. You are doing it wrong. You already know that a consistent story does not mean that it is anything more than a well-written story. Stop trying to show that there are holes in the plot and start trying to show that the story is a record of reality.

(07-04-2017 01:09 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I have to assume Christianity is true because I am trying to see if I can tear it down. If I assume Christianity is not true, then I ask myself why I assume it isn't true. Assuming Christianity is true forms the basis for my subsequent research.

Why not assume Greek mythology is true? How about Egyptian mythology? Maybe Aesop's fables are the best starting point?

It isn't that you have to assume that Christianity is not true, it is that you have to start with what is demonstrably true and see how well Christianity aligns to that. You can think of Christianity as a hypothesis that has been handed to you and your job is to determine if it is true or not without assuming either position at the outset. Now your job is to see if the claims of Christianity are supported by scientific evidence from biology, geology, paleontology, and other areas and if the predictions made by Christianity are reliable.
Duly noted

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07-04-2017, 06:47 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Having a bit of a moment here, feeling a bit anxious :/

I worry I might have said something bad about Christianity in this thread so I went back through every one of my posts. Seems the worst I did was agree with folk about a few things. Like, if the bible is created by an all powerful being, then its message should perfect and clear.

That's how it is with me. I keep getting panicky, I'm like "What have I done/said what have I done/said!"

It's been like this since 2010 November. And it is really rough on times

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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