Why I Believe
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07-04-2017, 11:37 PM
RE: Why I Believe
Thinking Theist

What is the reasoning & logic behind your position that there are no invisible, intangible pink elephants in your house ?

How do you justify this claim of yours ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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07-04-2017, 11:42 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 11:26 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 06:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  Pay close attention: there is no evidence of a deity.

You claim there is a deity, present evidence. You bear the burden of proof for your claim.

For what it's worth it seems Carl Sagan is attributed with the quote "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" referencing his Cosmos.

I believe that rereading my post you will see I did not make the claim that there is a deity. I did state that I was seeking answers as to the thinking processes using logic and reason as to how atheists support their position that there is no God and how they justify that claim.

I will state I do believe as a theist in the Creator God and that to do so is not irrational nor without grounds for belief.

I also acknowledge mordant did an excellence job of rationalizing the claim "deities do not exist" while lacking the ability of "proof" of the same.

> As far as supporting the position that the Christian God does not exist, see post #211 in this discussion.
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07-04-2017, 11:48 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2017 12:16 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 11:26 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 06:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  Pay close attention: there is no evidence of a deity.

You claim there is a deity, present evidence. You bear the burden of proof for your claim.

For what it's worth it seems Carl Sagan is attributed with the quote "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" referencing his Cosmos.

I believe that rereading my post you will see I did not make the claim that there is a deity. I did state that I was seeking answers as to the thinking processes using logic and reason as to how atheists support their position that there is no God and how they justify that claim.

I will state I do believe as a theist in the Creator God and that to do so is not irrational nor without grounds for belief.

I also acknowledge mordant did an excellence job of rationalizing the claim "deities do not exist" while lacking the ability of "proof" of the same.

The default atheist position, and probably the most common one, is a lack of belief in Gods. That's not the same as believing there are no Gods. The first is a state of being unconvinced. The second is being convinced to the contrary.

This is a very common misconception, and one that is subtle and can be hard to grasp at first. I'll post my video below where I go through all this.

Please have a go at defining what a "God" or "deity" is. How would I tell apart a God from an arbitrarily powerful non-God?




I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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07-04-2017, 11:55 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 10:42 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  I would also say the ad hominem critiques comments also cuts both ways i.e. the leprechaun/Flying Spaghetti Monster etc. comparison as the same as God. I do not believe that is rationally comparing apples to apples.

Only because you were raised to see your apple as more special. If you were raised from birth in a faith that treated the FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn with the same undeserved reverence as Yahweh or Allah, it might seem unfair to compare all those other heathen faiths to the One True Faith™ that is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They're all apples, there are just less people who think the FSM is more special than the other apples on offer. That you do not see, or rather or do see and resent, the parallels being drawn is sorta the point.

To a nonbeliever, nothing is holy or reverent, so both the FSM and Yahweh are equally irreverent.

I have just as much authority as the Pope, there are just less people on Earth who agree with me. Drinking Beverage

I would argue that you have presented a false premise to draw the conclusion you have presented. Your premise is that what one is taught from birth determines truth rather than applying known facts. Following this premise it would also be true that had you been raised from birth in a faith that treated the FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn with the same undeserved reverence as Yahweh or Allah you would be defending your belief of Pastafarianism.Consider
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08-04-2017, 12:02 AM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2017 12:19 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 11:55 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  I would argue that you have presented a false premise to draw the conclusion you have presented. Your premise is that what one is taught from birth determines truth rather than applying known facts. Following this premise it would also be true that had you been raised from birth in a faith that treated the FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn with the same undeserved reverence as Yahweh or Allah you would be defending your belief of Pastafarianism.

One, please stop the blue shit. Your post is not a hyperlink. Thanks.

Two, it is not a false premise. Have you yet to provide demonstrable evidence that your apple is more special than the apple of a Pastafarian? If not, then your apples are equally special, because they have an equal lack of evidence to support their supernatural claims. How many believers think they have evidence, while having no idea what evidence is, or the difference between good and bad evidence? Damn near all of them. Nobody maintains a belief they think is irrational, they just don't try hard to challenge it, or rationalize contradictory information to maintain the illusion of rationality for their preferred belief.

So either make with the extraordinary evidence to support your extraordinary claims, or own up to the fact that your belief has equal footing with the claims made by Pastafarians.

It simply comes down to putting up, or shutting up. You keep claiming logic and evidence that you have, surprising absolutely nobody here, yet to provide. Then again, requiring evidence for our beliefs makes us arrogant, right? Drinking Beverage

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08-04-2017, 12:03 AM
RE: Why I Believe
There have some good responses to some of my posts but as it is 1:00am here in the great state of Tennessee the bed calls. I do intent to respond as time permits. Thank you for patience
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08-04-2017, 12:05 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 03:56 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Wow! What a thread. Hello SeaJay all I can say is your OP has truly opened the door to many responses. I too am new to the forum and as a Christian I too came here seeking answers and although somewhat different to yours I am seeking answers just the same - mainly the thinking processes using logic and reason as to how atheists support their position that there is no God and how they justify that claim.

Theist are charged with using circular reasoning to defend their position. Their accused of being closed minded to any other possible explanation of our existence. It is stated as fact that their belief is due to indoctrination. It is these ideas and more that I would like to explore in the coming days as to what is true and can we really know it.

as a starting point some quotes I find interesting and what some of the members responses might be:
“I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence.
Carl Sagan

As time permits I would also like to go back to previous responses, many which are quite compelling and some not so much.
Hello A-Thinking-Theist

Interesting quote by Mr Sagan

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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08-04-2017, 12:08 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 11:55 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 11:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Only because you were raised to see your apple as more special. If you were raised from birth in a faith that treated the FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn with the same undeserved reverence as Yahweh or Allah, it might seem unfair to compare all those other heathen faiths to the One True Faith™ that is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They're all apples, there are just less people who think the FSM is more special than the other apples on offer. That you do not see, or rather or do see and resent, the parallels being drawn is sorta the point.

To a nonbeliever, nothing is holy or reverent, so both the FSM and Yahweh are equally irreverent.

I have just as much authority as the Pope, there are just less people on Earth who agree with me. Drinking Beverage

I would argue that you have presented a false premise to draw the conclusion you have presented. Your premise is that what one is taught from birth determines truth rather than applying known facts. Following this premise it would also be true that had you been raised from birth in a faith that treated the FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn with the same undeserved reverence as Yahweh or Allah you would be defending your belief of Pastafarianism.Consider

I wasn't told anything about these subjects. Religion was not mentioned to me, at all. So I had no pre-conceptions. Not being told something is not being "raised to have faith", it's leaving you to come to your own conclusions. The only reason anyone takes any of this stuff seriously is because of the oral myths surrounding them. Even those that aren't raised religiously are saturated in it from society.

But I don't consider that believers have any responsibility to justify their belief to anyone, unless they want to. No more than any atheist has to justify their lack of belief. Actions are ultimately what is important. But beliefs inform actions, which is why I do encourage people to analyse their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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08-04-2017, 12:12 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 04:03 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  SeaJay,

Sorry is already asked, but have you sought professional help, i.e. psychiatrist or psychologist? If for nothing else to talk through your fears? As a former evangelical, I know psychiatry and psychology are demonized (no pun intended) and severely discouraged unless you go to a "Christian" one (which is conflict of interest if they are honest). I went to one for about 3 months when I was trying to break away. It wasn't because of fear of hell, but it was to talk out issues with how I felt my family would react. It helped a great deal for me, because even though I was not given some silver bullet of an answer to solve all my problems, I was able to vocalize my problems and have an impartial 3rd party with no bias give me feedback, and he was very helpful.

Based on your postings, it sounds like you really want to let go of this but you won't let yourself. Your mind can be your greatest asset and at the same time your biggest enemy.
Yes, I've been in therapy consistently since 2010, and off and on for about 20 years now. I was in therapy as recently as last Tuesday

The main reason I want to let go of my faith is due to fear. Also, I suppose like most if not all theists (at some time in their journey) I am also questioning what it is I believe. It is a very important and serious subject so I can't just take things for granted.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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08-04-2017, 12:15 AM
RE: Why I Believe
That is horrendous, I'm so sorry for what you've been through Sad

I'm really glad you are getting help, and I hope you can eventually find a way to live without fear. I really do understand how hard that must be. I still live with effects of what my father programmed me with as a child (that I am useless and can't cope with anything). Even though it's utterly absurd, I still have to fight the emotional reaction.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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