Why I Believe
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08-04-2017, 12:26 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Seajay,

I am not normally a violent individual but if you don't stop this silliness at once I will light your soul on fire. I'm serious! I have a Zippo and I'm not afraid to use it! I will expose your immortal soul to the horrors of rapid, exothermic oxidation! Tongue

Ye gods and little green grasshoppers. I feel stupider for having written that, even in parody.

You want errors in the Bible? Look to your least favorite passage in Revelations. The author is so woefully ignorant that they do not appear to understand:
- The basic chemistry of combustion. How do you burn the immaterial?
- The basic physiology of the human nervous system. Even if fire could harm your soul you wouldn't feel it. Your nerves are back with the rest of your slowly decaying body.

Threatening a soul with a lake of fire is about as meaningful as waterboarding is to an oyster. The profound ignorance displayed by the author does not speak to the work of a deity, but rather somebody who flunked science in junior high school. Or more accurately, a Roman era priest trying to frighten people even more ignorant than he was.

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08-04-2017, 12:28 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(08-04-2017 12:26 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Seajay,

I am not normally a violent individual but if you don't stop this silliness at once I will light your soul on fire. I'm serious! I have a Zippo and I'm not afraid to use it! I will expose your immortal soul to the horrors of rapid, exothermic oxidation! Tongue

Ye gods and little green grasshoppers. I feel stupider for having written that, even in parody.

You want errors in the Bible? Look to your least favorite passage in Revelations. The author is so woefully ignorant that they do not appear to understand:
- The basic chemistry of combustion. How do you burn the immaterial?
- The basic physiology of the human nervous system. Even if fire could harm your soul you wouldn't feel it. Your nerves are back with the rest of your slowly decaying body.

Threatening a soul with a lake of fire is about as meaningful as waterboarding is to an oyster. The profound ignorance displayed by the author does not speak to the work of a deity, but rather somebody who flunked science in junior high school. Or more accurately, a Roman era priest trying to frighten people even more ignorant than he was.

Plus, we've done the math, and Heaven is hotter than Hell anyways.

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08-04-2017, 12:29 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 04:06 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Perhaps it would help you to realize that you don't have faith. You have fear.
Interesting point. I guess I do have faith but perhaps I have more fear than faith.

Quote:It's never been about me preaching.

(07-04-2017 04:06 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Most of us get that. Don't worry. If your behaviour gets annoying:
- We'll let you know. We are neither shy nor subtle.
- We'll let you know rudely.
- Your Rep will start dropping. Congrats on it being in the green BTW. Few theists manage that here.
- The Mods will fire a warning shot across your bow.

These are the stages most go through on the way to a banning and you typically have to work at earning it by being a jack-ass. You haven't shown any of these signs yet so hakuna matata.
Thank you for the reassurances

(06-04-2017 10:47 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  The bible is supposed to be the word of God. But now I can't help think that if that is the case, the message should be clear with no ambiguities. After all we are talking about an omnipotent and omniscient being. If I am saying the errors are down to man, then how can I distinguish the bible from all the other man made books out there?

(07-04-2017 04:06 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Actually, that's an easy one. The Bible reads like really bad fiction. The plot is a trainwreck, it flows like a can full of broken glass and it lacks a single likeable character. It reads like a story written by a UN committee where no two members shared a common language. We may be flawed mortals but you'd think that God AllMighty could at least get J.K. Rowling to pen the wretched thing.
The problem I have here is the bible isn't supposed to be read as a novel which is all about plot. Granted there is a plot, and it might be badly put together, but that's because it has numerous authors contributing, stretched out over hundreds of years, and they weren't writing a novel.

(07-04-2017 04:06 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Good attempt. Try this. Read Genesis 2 and 3 again and as yourself:
- What does God tell Adam and Eve will happen if the eat the forbidden fruit?
- What does the Serpent tell Eve will happen?
- What actually happens?
- Who lied and who told the truth?
- What is the reason that God gives at the end of chapter 3 for expelling Adam and Eve from Eden?
[Not preaching, just giving my thoughts]The way I see this is, before they ate the fruit they were immortal and couldn't die. When they ate the fruit they stopped being immortal and did eventually die. I think the proposition that they should have died instantly (or at least that day) is flawed.

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08-04-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 04:21 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Seajay,

You're looking for evidence that the Bible is not God's handiwork.

Nice work so far but the apologists have had centuries to polish their excuses. Those are easy enough to spot from the outside but you aren't there yet. Let's try a different approach.

Why don't you look at what the Bible doesn't have. If it lacks vital information that even the most poorly written tabloid would include might you reasonably conclude that it was not Divinely Inspired?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you talking about moral instruction, or scientific theories?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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08-04-2017, 12:48 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(07-04-2017 08:59 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 05:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I feel trapped and as I see it, there are only two ways out for me.

1. To be convinced there is no hell (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)

Perhaps the answer may not lie in being convinced either way, but rather in understanding the situation for what it actually is? Let me demonstrate ...

Compare your statement of ...

"To be convinced there is no hell (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)"

To ...

To be convinced there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)

So what you are left with in evaluating the validity of those two comparisons above is your ability to apply reason. So let's look at what we can reason.

1. We know that neither hell nor the FSM (Flying Spaghetti Monster) have any kind of evidence to support their existence.

2. We know that both are stories that originated either in written form, and/or from the imaginations of those who propagated them.

So, look at the FSM and ask yourself, "Why should I believe in such silliness?"

Now look at hell and ask yourself the same question.

It's not a matter of fear, really. It's a matter of reason.
Very insightful post, I like it. But because I do not have a fear of the FSM, because there is no threat of eternal agony attached to it, I can look at it objectively and without fear. The problem with hell, is it is bundled with eternal agony and so I simply cannot look at it in the same light. I do understand that you are saying the above way of looking at hell is precisely for the purpose of circumnavigating that fear, but it is still there. I've copy/pasted your instruction into my growing library of atheist themes though. I do think it is all about reason ultimately.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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08-04-2017, 12:56 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(08-04-2017 12:15 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That is horrendous, I'm so sorry for what you've been through Sad

I'm really glad you are getting help, and I hope you can eventually find a way to live without fear. I really do understand how hard that must be. I still live with effects of what my father programmed me with as a child (that I am useless and can't cope with anything). Even though it's utterly absurd, I still have to fight the emotional reaction.
Thank you Rob, very best of luck to you too

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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08-04-2017, 12:59 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Thank you Heart

I have high hopes for you. Such ingrained, powerful emotion is going to take time to conquer, but you've taken excellent and brave steps in a relatively short time already. The more reason and logic you can ease in, the harder it will be for the emotion to drag you down. It will take time, and I certainly can't promise it will go away completely, but I feel you have a good chance of getting it under control. You've done more thinking in your time here than many theists do in their entire forum lives (sometimes years) in my experience.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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08-04-2017, 12:59 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(08-04-2017 12:36 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(07-04-2017 04:21 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Seajay,

You're looking for evidence that the Bible is not God's handiwork.

Nice work so far but the apologists have had centuries to polish their excuses. Those are easy enough to spot from the outside but you aren't there yet. Let's try a different approach.

Why don't you look at what the Bible doesn't have. If it lacks vital information that even the most poorly written tabloid would include might you reasonably conclude that it was not Divinely Inspired?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you talking about moral instruction, or scientific theories?

Wouldn't both work?

We know that you don't get speckled offspring by having animals mate in front of sticks placed on the ground. We know, and can show, that genetics doesn't work like that.

Pi is not equal to 3, and both the Egyptians and Greeks had calculated it out a few decimal places centuries before.

The world is not flat, and was known to not be flat for a century before the Pentateuch was written down. Eratosthenes even managed to roughly calculate the circumference of the world before 200 BCE.





What possible justification could there be for killing the whole world? Even assuming you had such a justification, was drowning the most humane way to do it? What crime were the unborn children of pregnant mothers guilty of to deserve such condemnation?

How did the empires of Egypt and China both fail to record being wiped out by the global flood Noah survived? Resilient people they must be.

How moral is it for Jesus to kill a fig tree for not producing fruit out of season?

Remember too that when using Jesus as a template for moral action, charging into a crowd with a whip and flipping tables is acceptable behavior.

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08-04-2017, 01:03 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(08-04-2017 12:26 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  You want errors in the Bible? Look to your least favorite passage in Revelations. The author is so woefully ignorant that they do not appear to understand:
- The basic chemistry of combustion. How do you burn the immaterial?
- The basic physiology of the human nervous system. Even if fire could harm your soul you wouldn't feel it. Your nerves are back with the rest of your slowly decaying body.

Threatening a soul with a lake of fire is about as meaningful as waterboarding is to an oyster. The profound ignorance displayed by the author does not speak to the work of a deity, but rather somebody who flunked science in junior high school. Or more accurately, a Roman era priest trying to frighten people even more ignorant than he was.
Yes, this is something I've thought about as well. But as one YouTuber said, if you ask a theist why the fire doesn't annihilate the body, they'll respond it's 'magic fire'. Or something like that.

That does though have something about it as concerns the 'how' it all burns but doesn't burn up. The reason they gave why the body does not burn up is because, when the body is resurrected and judged (whether good or wicked), it is now immortal, or eternal, or, just, not subject to death and/or ruin. So the flames burn it and but the body can't be destroyed.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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08-04-2017, 01:15 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(08-04-2017 01:03 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Yes, this is something I've thought about as well. But as one YouTuber said, if you ask a theist why the fire doesn't annihilate the body, they'll respond it's 'magic fire'. Or something like that.

That does though have something about it as concerns the 'how' it all burns but doesn't burn up. The reason they gave why the body does not burn up is because, when the body is resurrected and judged (whether good or wicked), it is now immortal, or eternal, or, just, not subject to death and/or ruin. So the flames burn it and but the body can't be destroyed.

Just remember that 'magic' is a cop-out. It's what you throw out to pretend like you have an answer, instead of honestly admitting that you do not know. People who offer up magic answers to honest questions are themselves being dishonest, intentionally hurtful or not.

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