Why I Believe
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09-04-2017, 06:37 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(09-04-2017 03:33 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  What about killing to defend my own life or a loved one? Is justified the same as morally right? Wasn't God defending His chosen people from others because they were leading them from worship, or was it an act of aggression to do with claiming more land?

Defending his chosen people from what exactly? If you believe the Christians, your god would have been forced to torture his people forever because they had been misled by others and he didn't want to torture them forever so the best solution he could find was to have them kill everybody that might mislead them. What the fuck kind of incompetent god is that anyway? If he doesn't want to torture people then he can make himself known and set down clear rules. If the god the Christians describe is real then he's a jackass and can go fuck himself.

Not being worshiped is a pretty flimsy excuse no matter how you look at it. A god that demands worship is not a god that deserves worship. He's a mafia don demanding proper respect or else.

Quote:If God exists and He is good, He will understand.
If God exists and punishes me for unbelief, do I still hold the moral high ground?

Any god worth worshiping would know that the creatures he created are fallible and if you try to lead a decent life and use your ability to reason as best you can then yes, you are more moral than the thug god that the Christians imagine.

Quote:If I say "I am agnostic", how would I really know that? What happens if I say I am agnostic? Do I change, does something happen?

You stop wasting time worrying about primitive mythological beings and get on with your life.

Quote:"Why did God harden Pharoah's, heart? Well, Pharoah hardened his own heart a good few times before God did so and God gave him warnings too". This is a great example of the frustration I find when I look into the bible. For every negative claim against the bible, there seems to be a good response. Not all the time, but enough to drive me mental.

Where does it say that pharaoh hardened own heart? Even if he did, why does that give the god permission to do it to him when he finally relented? The exodus story is one of a bully who wanted to show off and didn't care who got killed in the process. That is not a moral god.

Quote:If I didn't believe, what kind of person am I? Do I try and do good because I am good or because of Christianity? Do I get my morality from the bible? I mean, there's some mad stuff in there, but there's also some good stuff. Turn the other cheek, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

There's nothing to stop a non-believer from cherry-picking the few small bits of the bible that may be good. There's good role models for moral behavior in many works of fiction. It isn't an all-or nothing proposition.

Quote:Mental Note: There are probably a few other issues but aside from hellfire the NT seems so different to the OT when it comes to killings and talk of mercy.

Yeah, the political reality on the ground had changed significantly.

Quote:I am not sure what I believe. Is anyone, are you?

Yes. I don't generally claim certainty about things but I know what I believe and what isn't supported by evidence.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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09-04-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(09-04-2017 06:25 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Let's say a hardcore Christian becomes a hardcore atheist if that atheist sometime later has a change of heart, can he once again become a Christian, is he saved, or is he forever lost? Not sure what the bible says about this.

I know this isn't logical (looking to the bible to affirm I'd be ok as an atheist/agnnstic, but I am interested in what people here believe to be the case.

This depends on whatever particular brand of Christianity you refer to. There are now over 40,000 of them. Basically, people interpret it however the hell they want. There are no wrong answers, because there are no right answers. There is just a book which has reached legendary levels of reverence despite being a steaming pile of shit.

And again, a God which punishes you for using the brain he gave you is just insane and should be ignored. For every "what if", there is a counter scenario. "What if" God is testing our critical thinking skills?

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09-04-2017, 06:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(09-04-2017 06:25 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Let's say a hardcore Christian becomes a hardcore atheist if that atheist sometime later has a change of heart, can he once again become a Christian, is he saved, or is he forever lost? Not sure what the bible says about this.

I know this isn't logical (looking to the bible to affirm I'd be ok as an atheist/agnnstic, but I am interested in what people here believe to be the case.

That's one of the strengths about a religion that really has no clear path to the truth, you can simply pick whatever interpretation you want to give you comfort.

Once saved always saved?

But not so fast! There's trouble in paradise:

We could also call this the sin of persistent self-hardening. It's the process by which an individual sears his conscience and stiffens his neck against God. If it goes on long enough, the person eventually reaches the point where genuine repentance is an impossibility. The fact that you're wrestling with doubts and fears about your standing with God leads us to suppose that you cannot be guilty of this sin. If you were, you wouldn't be concerned about it.


Interpretations, opinions, different beliefs, different denominations.

What to do with all of this conflicting information? Listen to the Llamas:




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-04-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(09-04-2017 06:25 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Let's say a hardcore Christian becomes a hardcore atheist if that atheist sometime later has a change of heart, can he once again become a Christian, is he saved, or is he forever lost? Not sure what the bible says about this.

There are denominations that hold to "once saved, always saved" and others that do not believe that. Like everything else, you can find supporting verses for either position because it was cobbled together from different people, places, and times and incorporates conflicting views. What the bible says on any topic is whatever you want it to say. It is useless as a guide to anything.

Quote:I know this isn't logical (looking to the bible to affirm I'd be ok as an atheist/agnnstic, but I am interested in what people here believe to be the case.

I believe the whole idea of salvation is nonsense. Stop and think about what you are supposedly being saved from...

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09-04-2017, 07:13 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Quote:"Why did God harden Pharoah's, heart? Well, Pharoah hardened his own heart a good few times before God did so and God gave him warnings too". This is a great example of the frustration I find when I look into the bible. For every negative claim against the bible, there seems to be a good response. Not all the time, but enough to drive me mental.

(09-04-2017 06:37 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Where does it say that pharaoh hardened own heart?
It's around Exodus 7. Pharoah hardened his heart quite a few times according to the bible. Then, after that, God hardens Pharoah's heart, so when Pharoah finally does say 'ok your people can leave', his heart was now hardened. Begs the question if his heart was hardened, why did Pharoah say Moses and his people could leave?

Quote:Mental Note: There are probably a few other issues but aside from hellfire the NT seems so different to the OT when it comes to killings and talk of mercy.

(09-04-2017 06:37 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Yeah, the political reality on the ground had changed significantly.
True

Quote:I am not sure what I believe. Is anyone, are you?

(09-04-2017 06:37 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Yes. I don't generally claim certainty about things but I know what I believe and what isn't supported by evidence.
Fair point

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09-04-2017, 07:14 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Religion sounds like a rapist who says

"Consent to wonderful sex all night long or I'll beat the hell out of you."

He's offering you a great time.
If you refuse, you're sending yourself to the emergency room.

What a loving fellow.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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09-04-2017, 08:16 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(09-04-2017 07:14 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Religion sounds like a rapist who says

"Consent to wonderful sex all night long or I'll beat the hell out of you."

He's offering you a great time.
If you refuse, you're sending yourself to the emergency room.

What a loving fellow.

Except it's more the priest saying "Do what I say OR ELSE my invisible unprovable friend will GET YOU" Rolleyes

There's a reason they're all about indoctrinating kids. No adult should be bothered by this crap.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-04-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Yeah, I tried to get someone to at least consider not indoctrinated their future children. They wouldn't hear of it. They were totally convinced of the truth of the their beliefs, and said the children would believe it anyway even if they didn't indoctrinate them early but... guess what, they were going to do it anyway.

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09-04-2017, 10:01 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(09-04-2017 03:33 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  If God exists and He is good, He will understand.
If God exists and punishes me for unbelief, do I still hold the moral high ground?
-----'
If I say "I am agnostic", how would I really know that? What happens if I say I am agnostic? Do I change, does something happen?

Perhaps I can't 'not' believe. Just because I fear hellfire doesn't mean I can just decide 'Ok I don't believe anymore.'
------
If I didn't believe, what kind of person am I? Do I try and do good because I am good or because of Christianity? Do I get my morality from the bible? I mean, there's some mad stuff in there, but there's also some good stuff. Turn the other cheek, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.
-----
I am not sure what I believe. Is anyone, are you?

I don't think it is possible to just stop believing something because you fear it. I fear because I believe it to be true. Or do I really believe?

I posted this previously and I think it may be important to ponder...
Quote:All powerful - powerful over you and the entire world
All knowing - knows everything of you and the entire world
All loving - loves you and the entire world
-----
If you and everyone believes, suffering still remains.
If you and everyone believes, uncertainty still remains.
If you and everyone believes, hatred still remains.

What happens if you don't believe?

You fear change. Everyone does, in even the smallest ways. To you - to many - this nonbelief does not appear to be a small change.

What happens if you do not believe?
Nothing. Not a fucking thing.
Everything. Not really - you may see things more clearly and possibly more comfortably. You might be a bit better able to deal with things as they come up.

Do you perceive you will have to start killing people as soon as you begin to not believe in a god? Do you think that you will suddenly have no hope?

You trust a god as the source of your hope. This is understandable - human beings are unreliable. You are a human being.
You have no faith in the thing that you are. You are a human being.

You do not trust yourself to "choose the correct way to change" because no god has "told you", only other human beings. The thing that you are - the thing you do not trust. You are beginning to think there is no such god, only unreliable and only untrustworthy human beings. You are a human being. What a fucking nightmare.
****

You are the exact same person you were 10 years ago.
Have you changed? Yes and no.
Did it hurt? Yes and no.
The only thing that has changed is how you see yourself.
Your self perception changed because your mind changed to see the world around you, differently than you had the day before.

***

Change happens - it is unavoidable. Accepting change and working with it, can be a bit difficult but it can also relieve the anxiety it brings.

Not accepting change - trying to avoid it and finding everything to reject it, causes anxiety and continues to do so, while relieving none of the fear & anxiety it brings.
Avoiding something doesn't make it go away, it just makes it worse.

****

You are a human being.
You are loved and possibly detested by just as many right, now as you were 10 years ago. You struggle with who you are.
You may also struggle with who you love and who equally loves you back. Will your fellow, untrustworthy humans love you back as much as what may be a nonexistent god has been loving you?

Possibly best to start out slowly. Begin to love yourself as a human being. Begin to trust yourself as a human being. Maybe if you do this, you will find a greater hope in humanity than in a god.

You are a human being.

Heart

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-04-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(09-04-2017 06:25 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Let's say a hardcore Christian becomes a hardcore atheist...

I'm not quite certain what you mean by hardcore atheist?

Would you also say a woman is partially pregnant, or fully pregnant? The use of the word hardcore is meaningless in terms of atheism, and I always reject the notion of variables when theists erroneously ascribe "degrees" of atheism—they don't exist.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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