Why I Believe
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10-04-2017, 08:04 AM
RE: Why I Believe
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth... how much exactly? Please could anyone tell me what problems, or examples of problems, that can be solved by prayer? And detail to me how they arrived at the conclusion that prayer was good for the said problem.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-04-2017, 08:11 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(10-04-2017 06:47 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(09-04-2017 11:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  At the same time, somehow in science there's an objective standard and a consensus is arrived at - apart from the odd maverick who may up-end the whole apple cart with a new, more powerful idea, much to everyone's delight, yet in religion everyone has their own truth, and that truth is precious and may not be challenged - there's no consensus and heretics who believe something else are to be feared, not celebrated.

Religion is built on the idea of protecting some stupid idea. Science is built around tearing down stuff that doesn't work. As much as religion would love to be able to claim the same effectiveness as science, we cure more people wholesale in a week than have been cured by prayer in the last several thousand years.

Facepalm It's apparent the more one applies thoughtful consideration of what's being stated the more sees double standards to posit one's view. I feel confident if I stated that prayer cures people I would be bombarded with challenges to prove the claim and statements saying the effects of prayer are unfalsifiable yet am I the only one that questions the above claim? Again Facepalm

Food for thought are these results of a poll of doctors: Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey,” the report notes, “is that a majority of doctors (55 percent) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45 percent do not).
Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2004/12/28152/#sfz...Res7K6m.99

The effects of intercessory prayer have been tested and found to be non-existent.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-04-2017, 08:16 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(10-04-2017 07:44 AM)Vera Wrote:  The blood of those women and their children is on all you idiots, stuck in the bronze age Censored

The damage that religion does specifically in Africa is... too much. We have a huge population, widespread lack of education, widespread poverty. Of course the vultures move in. Add to that long-standing traditions of unquestioning obedience to leadership... It's a goddamn toxic mix.

If religion was worth a damn, if it was actually good for you, Africa would be light-years ahead of even the USA. Religion is everywhere here. And the poorer and more fucked you are, the more you go to church. So it's not a question of lack of faith. If anything more faith = more fucked. Which is probably AOK and as it should be by Christian logic Dodgy

It must be admitted too that there are some churchmen who I genuinely respect here. Desmond Tutu is known internationally but there are others. I think they are humane people who're working within a corrupt system. And it doesn't excuse any of the bullshit.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-04-2017, 08:20 AM
RE: Why I Believe
SeaJay, sorry I hijacked your thread a bit. Any mod who's watching, please do feel free to split out the last few off-topic posts relating to this spat over medical efficacy of prayer. It doesn't really belong here.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-04-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(10-04-2017 06:47 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Food for thought are these results of a poll of doctors: Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey,” the report notes, “is that a majority of doctors (55 percent) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45 percent do not).

1 You lizard
Quote:Those surveyed represent physicians from Christian (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian and other), Jewish (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular) Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist religious traditions.
Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2004/12/28152/#rO4...XxXSUhA.99

2 Morondog, you're also a lizard. See what you started? Tongue

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10-04-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Morondog, can't say it's been doing miracles for my beloved Brazil, either Undecided

And yeah, the poorer you are, the more likely you are to be religious. What really stuns me though, is the educated (as in scientifically educated) believers. Still can't figure it out (luckily, haven't met any here... unless in some other places which shall remain nameless Rolleyes )

Of course there are decent pastors and what have you. Just like there are quite a few shitty atheists (cough*Dawkins*cough*ego-monster). And yet, you have someone like John Paul II, a supposedly good guy, who tells the weak and the weary, the most vulnerable (and most gullible) that AIDS is a punishment from god (what a loving, loving parent! Oh, but check out this brilliant Greg Egan story about this) and that the women raped in Bosnia shouldn't even think about abortion. Censored Censored Censored

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10-04-2017, 08:42 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(10-04-2017 08:36 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  2 Morondog, you're also a lizard. See what you started? Tongue

Hehehe Big Grin I'm not sorry at all. These oh-so-reasonable types are all just as loco as the rest, they're just cleverer at hiding it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-04-2017, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2017 11:13 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Why I Believe
(10-04-2017 12:27 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Reading Joshua 11:20 I also came across this

Joshua 10:12-13
12 At that time Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,

“Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”


13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

I’ve researched this and I have not found a good explanation for why the sun and moon stood still. The most popular explanations are:

1. It was a miracle
2. The earth slowed on its axis

To me it is obvious the ancients thought the sun moved around the earth and not vice versa.

Is this strong evidence the bible is man made or is it the case that God does not need to correct the authors on every detail? I can't help think that a divinely written book should not include this.

Let's look at the possibilities.

1 - Magic
Do you remember what magical answers are? Unexplained ones. Claiming magic (e.g. miracles) is pretending to answer without actually answering anything at it. It is the 'I ain't gotta explain shit' answer. It is a non-answer, pretending to know things you do not know. Considering that magic answers also defy everything we know about how the world works (which unlike in ancient Judea, is quite substantial now), they also require taking on a mountain's worth a unsupported assumptions. In all of recorded history, 'magic' has never been found to be the best possible explanation of any phenomena. Thunder and lightning? Not magic. Volcanoes? Not magic. Earthquakes? Not magic. Solar eclipses? You guessed it, not magic. It is statistically the least probable answer, by a long country mile.

2 - Axis Manipulation
The Earth rotates about it axis once per day, making the average rotational speed at the equator about 465 meters per second. If someone pulled the brakes on Earth itself, it would destroy the planet as we know it. Stopping the land wouldn't stop the water, and can you imagine what 465 meters per second worth of momentum would do to the planet's oceans? It's atmosphere? If axial rotation stopped, those still on the surface would still have their momentum. So not only would everyone be thrown from their relative position at incredible (and most likely lethal) force, we'd have catastrophic winds and continent engulfing tsunamis. Assuming people even survived, someone else would have noticed.

3 - Solar Manipulation
Altering the solar system could potentially have even more severe repercussions. However let's ignore that, and note that if the heavens themselves were truly being manipulated on a solar system wide scale, how come only the Bible noticed it? This event was somehow missed by all of the other contemporary astronomers and historians the world over? Nobody else noticed this miraculous event? I'm pretty damn sure the Egyptians, Greeks, and Chinese would have noted such an event, and written about it extensively.

4 - Fiction
The story is just that, a story. The event as described never happened, or the miraculous parts were authorial embellishment. Could be a popular legend, or a piece of contemporary propaganda. Unlike all of the previous explanations, this requires no suspensions of the know laws of physics. Also, lying is dirt common. History is filled with people lying for their benefit, for gains both personal and political. By definition, all other competing religions are wholesale lies given that most of them are made mutually exclusive by their own supernatural claims. Lying, malicious or not, is both the simplest and most probable explanation.


That is how you reason through the problem.

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10-04-2017, 10:05 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Got to 2 and was like, wtf!? EK never heard of inertial dampeners? Tongue

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10-04-2017, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2017 10:28 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Why I Believe
(10-04-2017 12:27 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(09-04-2017 02:06 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Joshua 11
20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

See alos Romans 11.

God causes people like Rezin, king of Damascus to attack israel, and in his tun, God raises enemies against Rezin. Etc.
Reading Joshua 11:20 I also came across this

Joshua 10:12-13
12 At that time Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel,

“Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”


13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

I’ve researched this and I have not found a good explanation for why the sun and moon stood still. The most popular explanations are:

1. It was a miracle
2. The earth slowed on its axis

To me it is obvious the ancients thought the sun moved around the earth and not vice versa.

Is this strong evidence the bible is man made or is it the case that God does not need to correct the authors on every detail? I can't help think that a divinely written book should not include this.

Of course it's a storybook made by men. Why would a god need to effect things on a cosmic scale to change the outcome of a battle on one tiny plot of land at a remote middle-eastern location? It's a silly notion, god could have just made the enemies swords break or teleported them to Madagascar or gave them a raging case of hemorrhoids so they couldn't fight- QED.

Do you think god wouldn't strike someone with hemorrhoids?

Hemorrhoids in the bible.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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