Why I Believe
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05-04-2017, 08:16 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 08:06 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 08:04 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Years ago when I first starting seeing a therapist for anxiety (no fear of hell at this time), I remember talking and I said "I guess I'm just afraid of dying." The therapist said "I've been waiting for you to say this for weeks." I believe there might be something here for me to talk to in my next therapy session.

My therapist tells me it is because I feel I need to be punished and this is due to my upbringing. Of course I am unsure and believe it's just a sugar coated way of excusing me as a "bad person deserving of punishment".

So, who told you that you are a bad person who needs punishment?
It is a mindset I formed over the years of living with a Mother that was Bi-polar (though never diagnosed myself and other therapists believe this). All the screaming and anger probably took its toll

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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05-04-2017, 08:22 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 08:16 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 08:06 AM)Dom Wrote:  So, who told you that you are a bad person who needs punishment?
It is a mindset I formed over the years of living with a Mother that was Bi-polar (though never diagnosed myself and other therapists believe this). All the screaming and anger probably took its toll

Do you think that without the threat of hell you would be raping and pillaging? What horrible things would you inflict on humanity without the fear of punishment?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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05-04-2017, 08:37 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 05:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Fear is the key. Not sure if anyone expected that answer, but it's true. For the most part fear is the key. I mean, it's not just fear, I do have a belief it is true. But here's the situation:

I have major issues with Christianity, from slavery, brutality, misogynistic practices, the need for a human sacrifice, the threat of an eternal agonising afterlife for some, the need for any of this. But I am scared of being wrong. I have a real phobia about going to hell. I feel trapped and as I see it, there are only two ways out for me.

1. To be convinced there is no hell (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)

2. To, not believe. All I will say is that I have major doubts. I'm having a real crisis of faith.

We do know that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and we can know through studying Judaism that hell, eternal damnation, and salvation are not Jewish concepts. They were introduced to Christianity at a later date from a pagan religion.

So I’ll ask you, do you associate Christianity as having more in common with Judaism or ancient Roman paganism? Which one do you believe was the “true” religion until the point of Jesus’s supposed death? When you answer that, you can determine if there is just cause for the Christians to have included the doctrine on eternal damnation. If you decide that Christianity has more in common with Judaism, I might be able to help you better understand what Christianity originally taught when it was still a Jewish religion... when Jesus was the lead figure and not Paul.

If for whatever reason we don’t get the chance to further discuss this, I wish you the best of luck in your quest for truth.

My strategy of ignoring my problems until they disappear never seems to work out for me. ...I'll try to get around to dealing with that in the near future.
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05-04-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Of all the religions in the world I actually find Christianity to be the most vile and disgusting. It's a form of extortion with a lot of sado masochism throw in for good measure.

First the person, usually a child, is told they are a bad, sinful, horrible person. Over time they are convinced that, yes indeed, they are miserable, wicked and unworthy. Then after having been completely convinced that they are majorly full of sin, Christianity then hands out the antidote in the form of Jesus and if the person doesn't believe in Jesus they will burn in hell forever because they are truly wicked.

There is no free choice in the matter. A free choice would be to accept Jesus or not accept Jesus without retribution but there are consequences attached to the choice. When consequences are attached to a choice it becomes coercion and that is extortion.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
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Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-04-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 08:37 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 05:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Fear is the key. Not sure if anyone expected that answer, but it's true. For the most part fear is the key. I mean, it's not just fear, I do have a belief it is true. But here's the situation:

I have major issues with Christianity, from slavery, brutality, misogynistic practices, the need for a human sacrifice, the threat of an eternal agonising afterlife for some, the need for any of this. But I am scared of being wrong. I have a real phobia about going to hell. I feel trapped and as I see it, there are only two ways out for me.

1. To be convinced there is no hell (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)

2. To, not believe. All I will say is that I have major doubts. I'm having a real crisis of faith.

We do know that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and we can know through studying Judaism that hell, eternal damnation, and salvation are not Jewish concepts. They were introduced to Christianity at a later date from a pagan religion.

So I’ll ask you, do you associate Christianity as having more in common with Judaism or ancient Roman paganism? Which one do you believe was the “true” religion until the point of Jesus’s supposed death? When you answer that, you can determine if there is just cause for the Christians to have included the doctrine on eternal damnation. If you decide that Christianity has more in common with Judaism, I might be able to help you better understand what Christianity originally taught when it was still a Jewish religion... when Jesus was the lead figure and not Paul.

If for whatever reason we don’t get the chance to further discuss this, I wish you the best of luck in your quest for truth.
Thank you

I've never thought about the question before, but I believe Christianity has more in common with Judaism and I know the Old Testament doesn't speak of a firey burning hell, not at least until they Israelites (?) came out of Babylon.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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05-04-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 08:41 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Of all the religions in the world I actually find Christianity to be the most vile and disgusting. It's a form of extortion with a lot of sado masochism throw in for good measure.

First the person, usually a child, is told they are a bad, sinful, horrible person. Over time they are convinced that, yes indeed, they are miserable, wicked and unworthy. Then after having been completely convinced that they are majorly full of sin, Christianity then hands out the antidote in the form of Jesus and if the person doesn't believe in Jesus they will burn in hell forever because they are truly wicked.

There is no free choice in the matter. A free choice would be to accept Jesus or not accept Jesus without retribution but there are consequences attached to the choice. When consequences are attached to a choice it becomes coercion and that is extortion.
I've often pondered the nature of the choice we have and it never makes sense to me.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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05-04-2017, 08:50 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 08:41 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 08:37 AM)Aliza Wrote:  We do know that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, and we can know through studying Judaism that hell, eternal damnation, and salvation are not Jewish concepts. They were introduced to Christianity at a later date from a pagan religion.

So I’ll ask you, do you associate Christianity as having more in common with Judaism or ancient Roman paganism? Which one do you believe was the “true” religion until the point of Jesus’s supposed death? When you answer that, you can determine if there is just cause for the Christians to have included the doctrine on eternal damnation. If you decide that Christianity has more in common with Judaism, I might be able to help you better understand what Christianity originally taught when it was still a Jewish religion... when Jesus was the lead figure and not Paul.

If for whatever reason we don’t get the chance to further discuss this, I wish you the best of luck in your quest for truth.
Thank you

I've never thought about the question before, but I believe Christianity has more in common with Judaism and I know the Old Testament doesn't speak of a firey burning hell, not at least until they Israelites (?) came out of Babylon.

There is no firey burning hell in Judaism, period. If you think your OT says people will burn in hell for all eternity, then without having examined the text and the context, I suspect that it's been mistranslated or misunderstood.

My strategy of ignoring my problems until they disappear never seems to work out for me. ...I'll try to get around to dealing with that in the near future.
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05-04-2017, 09:22 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 08:16 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  It is a mindset I formed over the years of living with a Mother that was Bi-polar (though never diagnosed myself and other therapists believe this). All the screaming and anger probably took its toll
If there was lots of screaming and anger, she might have had borderline personality disorder (BPD) instead of or in addition to bipolar. I'm surprised no one has considered this possibility. People with BPD wax hot and cold, and alternately idolize and demonize you. It is easy for an armchair diagnosis to overlook it or confuse it with bipolar.

Not that it really matters, your mother was toxic, that's the bottom line.
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05-04-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 09:22 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 08:16 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  It is a mindset I formed over the years of living with a Mother that was Bi-polar (though never diagnosed myself and other therapists believe this). All the screaming and anger probably took its toll
If there was lots of screaming and anger, she might have had borderline personality disorder (BPD) instead of or in addition to bipolar. I'm surprised no one has considered this possibility. People with BPD wax hot and cold, and alternately idolize and demonize you. It is easy for an armchair diagnosis to overlook it or confuse it with bipolar.

Not that it really matters, your mother was toxic, that's the bottom line.
Well I have been diagnosed with BPD so I wouldn't be surprised if she had it too. She is dead now though so no way of knowing for sure.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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05-04-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 09:35 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 09:22 AM)mordant Wrote:  If there was lots of screaming and anger, she might have had borderline personality disorder (BPD) instead of or in addition to bipolar. I'm surprised no one has considered this possibility. People with BPD wax hot and cold, and alternately idolize and demonize you. It is easy for an armchair diagnosis to overlook it or confuse it with bipolar.

Not that it really matters, your mother was toxic, that's the bottom line.
Well I have been diagnosed with BPD so I wouldn't be surprised if she had it too. She is dead now though so no way of knowing for sure.
That is most unfortunate. Increasingly I don't see your issues as religiously caused so much as religiously amplified. The demonstrably failed epistemology known as religious faith acts as a megaphone for the best and worst in humanity. Often, more for the worst than the best, I'm afraid.

It is not an accident that therapists most frequently encounter people with psychoses and delusions, that they are religious in nature. It's an open question whether this is because religion attracts people with these issues, or causes them, or both, and in what proportions. But at bottom, the answer is basically the opposite of religious faith.

Religious faith is accepting asserted truth without requiring substantiation of any kind. The opposite of that is establishing what is true based on what can be evidenced to be true in some reliable way. That way is, in large measure, the scientific method. Invisible gods, by definition, cannot be falsified and therefore no scientifically valid hypotheses may be advanced concerning them. Since no defensible knowledge position can be taken to either prove or disprove their existence, one must decide whether to afford belief to them. That which is worthy of belief is that for which the preponderance of actual evidence makes that thing likely to be true.

There is not just a paucity of evidence for invisible gods, there is a total ABSENCE of any SHRED of evidence. Therefore they are VERY UNLIKELY to be true, to the point that, practically speaking, there is no reason to behave any differently than if they do not exist. Therefore, they are not worthy of belief.

Everything hinges on this. If gods are not worthy of belief, neither are the doctrines associated with them, the faux "discipline" of theology, or the dogma and doctrine that arises from it. Including the concept of eternal perdition.
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