Why I Believe
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12-04-2017, 07:51 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 05:38 AM)Vera Wrote:  It's a process, SeaJay, it takes time. You brain needs to be ready to let go, I guess. Just keep reading works that tear into the vile stuff, and mock it.

And, speaking of morally suspect, let's assume that whole Adam and Eve poppycock were true and billions of people deserved to live lives of suffering and pain and injustice for ages and ages, just because a broad wanted some apples that one time, how is it in anyway fair for animals and the rest of life on the planet to be suffering the way they are? What kind of a monster is okay with this?









(and that's before we move on to the larger critters)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if any of the monotheistic gods actually existed, the universe wouldn't be big enough to hold their vileness and monstrosity.

Luckily, they're just particularly nasty figments of the terrified imaginations of people who had no idea where the sun went at night. But now we know much more and have even managed to evolve as a society a bit. Let's let their abhorrent mythologies finally die a long overdue death.

Scary.as.fuck. Popcorn Gasp Shocking

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12-04-2017, 08:23 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 05:25 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  ---
There's a lot here that just doesn't make sense to me nor do I believe, yet I'm sat here anxious that I feel as if I am still in the same boat I was yesterday.

From a moral standpoint, I find myself in the weird situation where I do not approve of most of what my belief is made up of.

From a scientific standpoint, I find myself in the situation where there's a lot I just don't accept as true.

The confusion is that, despite all the above, it doesn't seem to have much effect on what I believe. My rejection of this or that does not 'turn off' my faith as it were. Truth be told, it isn't because of fear either. It feels like there's something missing, some final piece of the jigsaw out there I haven't encountered yet. I feel flat and numb about it all.

So? What's your hurry? Unless ...
Did you meet some hawt nontheist you promised to go to the spring reason rally with? Wink

You are in the same boat you were yesterday. Relax into it and enjoy your chance to learn. Possibly keep a journal to keep you busy. It might also keep you from fixating on minutiae and talking yourself back out of the progress you have made.

Thing is - if your break away happened at the snap of your fingers, your brain would not be prepared to process it. Your brain still thinks it is "protecting" you from uncertainty. It already knows it can't but, your input still effects it that way. There will be uncertainty, it is unavoidable.

Be patient - be content in knowing that each day you are helping your conscious brain and your subconscious brain to prepare for uncertainty and whatever is going on with you at any given moment. That's really all it is.
****

I personally don't give a shit what you believe. Why would I? I don't have to live your life, I've got my own.

You are used to supporting belief from a single book. You now find that belief is subjective and your mind is adjusting to other possibilities and uncertainties.

Nonbelief is just as subjective and there is no single book. I was going to write more here but have no idea what it would be ... I'll leave it for you ...

Previously, you we're in a house with a big picture window - a glass wall, really. No matter how giant or clear that glass wall was, you had no idea that you were not seeing the entire world.

Now, you've found that not everyone is in a house like that. This is a possibility, an uncertainty. Get used to it - there will be more.

And you thought puberty was a bummer. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-04-2017, 08:40 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 07:25 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 06:59 AM)Vera Wrote:  If you'll excuse the offtopic...

Anybody who doesn't should be banned with alacrity. Big Grin

I love this fluffy stuff, even though my brain still cringes at the mention of God; earlier I was gonna argue along the lines of being all mathematically connected and whether or not the illogical conclusion of this train of thought was universal consciousness. Heart




Apples and rubber ducks, Johnny, completely different things.

And I detest meaningless fluffiness with every fibre of my cold, heartless, cynical being.

Now, when it's smart people speaking poetically, as 'twere, it's a completely different matter Heart





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12-04-2017, 08:42 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 06:48 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 06:08 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  One thing I usually think about is, the ancients believed Heaven was in the, well, heavens, somewhere beyond the sky.

Few thousand years later, we know what's beyond the sky and it doesn't seem to be anyone's abode. This for me (believe it or not) is one of the strongest pieces of evidence Christianity is false.

It's very simplistic but then that to me is what gives this idea its strength.

We have known this experientially since the first astronauts made it to the edge of space some sixty years ago, but we have known it scientifically for much longer. During this time, people simply adapted their understanding of heaven to fit the new understanding of reality. Heaven was simply relocated into the supernatural, and "the heavens" became metaphorical rather than literal. In a sense, heaven didn't move an inch, because it's always been located in the unknown, which is where all invisible beings and realms have always dwelt.
True. But when I read verses such as 'coming in the clouds', it adds credence that something was believed to be residing up there, somewhere.

(12-04-2017 06:48 AM)mordant Wrote:  I know a panentheist who has simply relocated god into dark matter, the final frontier of the cosmic unknown in some ways. He will tell anyone unlucky enough to be within earshot that dark matter makes up most of the universe so we know only a fraction of it, therefore god. I don't know what he's going to do when we figure out what dark matter is -- possibly we might even figure out that it's an illusion caused by greater than expected variations in the density of matter in the universe, according to a paper just out.
Infinite regression headache incoming

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12-04-2017, 08:57 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 07:51 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 05:38 AM)Vera Wrote:  It's a process, SeaJay, it takes time. You brain needs to be ready to let go, I guess. Just keep reading works that tear into the vile stuff, and mock it.

And, speaking of morally suspect, let's assume that whole Adam and Eve poppycock were true and billions of people deserved to live lives of suffering and pain and injustice for ages and ages, just because a broad wanted some apples that one time, how is it in anyway fair for animals and the rest of life on the planet to be suffering the way they are? What kind of a monster is okay with this?









(and that's before we move on to the larger critters)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if any of the monotheistic gods actually existed, the universe wouldn't be big enough to hold their vileness and monstrosity.

Luckily, they're just particularly nasty figments of the terrified imaginations of people who had no idea where the sun went at night. But now we know much more and have even managed to evolve as a society a bit. Let's let their abhorrent mythologies finally die a long overdue death.

Scary.as.fuck. Popcorn Gasp Shocking
Agreed. I'd heard of that before but, natural is mental!

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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12-04-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 08:23 AM)kim Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 05:25 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  ---
There's a lot here that just doesn't make sense to me nor do I believe, yet I'm sat here anxious that I feel as if I am still in the same boat I was yesterday.

From a moral standpoint, I find myself in the weird situation where I do not approve of most of what my belief is made up of.

From a scientific standpoint, I find myself in the situation where there's a lot I just don't accept as true.

The confusion is that, despite all the above, it doesn't seem to have much effect on what I believe. My rejection of this or that does not 'turn off' my faith as it were. Truth be told, it isn't because of fear either. It feels like there's something missing, some final piece of the jigsaw out there I haven't encountered yet. I feel flat and numb about it all.

So? What's your hurry? Unless ...
Did you meet some hawt nontheist you promised to go to the spring reason rally with? Wink

You are in the same boat you were yesterday. Relax into it and enjoy your chance to learn. Possibly keep a journal to keep you busy. It might also keep you from fixating on minutiae and talking yourself back out of the progress you have made.

Thing is - if your break away happened at the snap of your fingers, your brain would not be prepared to process it. Your brain still thinks it is "protecting" you from uncertainty. It already knows it can't but, your input still effects it that way. There will be uncertainty, it is unavoidable.

Be patient - be content in knowing that each day you are helping your conscious brain and your subconscious brain to prepare for uncertainty and whatever is going on with you at any given moment. That's really all it is.
****

I personally don't give a shit what you believe. Why would I? I don't have to live your life, I've got my own.

You are used to supporting belief from a single book. You now find that belief is subjective and your mind is adjusting to other possibilities and uncertainties.

Nonbelief is just as subjective and there is no single book. I was going to write more here but have no idea what it would be ... I'll leave it for you ...

Previously, you we're in a house with a big picture window - a glass wall, really. No matter how giant or clear that glass wall was, you had no idea that you were not seeing the entire world.

Now, you've found that not everyone is in a house like that. This is a possibility, an uncertainty. Get used to it - there will be more.

And you thought puberty was a bummer. Wink
Thanks for the advice, and you're right, I am trying to rush things.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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12-04-2017, 09:02 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 08:40 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 07:25 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Anybody who doesn't should be banned with alacrity. Big Grin

I love this fluffy stuff, even though my brain still cringes at the mention of God; earlier I was gonna argue along the lines of being all mathematically connected and whether or not the illogical conclusion of this train of thought was universal consciousness. Heart




Apples and rubber ducks, Johnny, completely different things.

And I detest meaningless fluffiness with every fibre of my cold, heartless, cynical being.

Now, when it's smart people speaking poetically, as 'twere, it's a completely different matter Heart





[Image: brian-cox-science-quote.jpg]

And. I love dandelions.
That's a great quote from Brain Cox

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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12-04-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 05:43 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There's a simple test to determine whether one should keep religion or not. "Does this religion make me more or less of a dick?" Pretty much the test for keeping anything.

Now you're telling me to stop drinking. I've about had it with this thread! Angry

Big Grin

Tongue

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12-04-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(10-04-2017 06:47 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(09-04-2017 11:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  At the same time, somehow in science there's an objective standard and a consensus is arrived at - apart from the odd maverick who may up-end the whole apple cart with a new, more powerful idea, much to everyone's delight, yet in religion everyone has their own truth, and that truth is precious and may not be challenged - there's no consensus and heretics who believe something else are to be feared, not celebrated.

Religion is built on the idea of protecting some stupid idea. Science is built around tearing down stuff that doesn't work. As much as religion would love to be able to claim the same effectiveness as science, we cure more people wholesale in a week than have been cured by prayer in the last several thousand years.

Facepalm It's apparent the more one applies thoughtful consideration of what's being stated the more sees double standards to posit one's view. I feel confident if I stated that prayer cures people I would be bombarded with challenges to prove the claim and statements saying the effects of prayer are unfalsifiable yet am I the only one that questions the above claim? Again Facepalm

Food for thought are these results of a poll of doctors: Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey,” the report notes, “is that a majority of doctors (55 percent) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45 percent do not).
Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2004/12/28152/#sfz...Res7K6m.99

Quote:Those surveyed represent physicians from Christian (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian and other), Jewish (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular) Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist religious traditions.

The results are skewed and invalid. No atheists were surveyed. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-04-2017, 11:38 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Been thinking. There is no real evidence for the existence of any gods. I believe this because if we did have real evidence, then we'd all be believers. Some might not agree with what the bible teaches, but everyone would at least believe gods existed. At least the debates would not be about whether or not gods existed.

So for me, the best evidence we have, are personal experiences. The problem here is that feelings are subjective and do not constitute real evidence. Science can hook us up to machines that can excite parts of the brain that result in the individual having religious experiences. Scientists know which parts of our brain "lights" up when we experience feelings of peace, joy, euphoria, etc. Point is, these feelings, if they are supernatural and divine, can be replicated by mankind in a laboratory. Drugs I'll bet can do similar. Even so, none of this disproves a belief in and of itself.

Personally, I don't think I have had any real evidence, only feelings. At least I haven't had anything that could be studied in any way. So my continued (albeit shaky) belief stems from my faith and is perpetuated by my fear of being wrong. So faith and fear and fear we've discussed.

The bible definition of faith says it is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen and that's how I view my current situation. I'm not sure where I am going with this other than I have just realised it's all down to faith, for me. I cannot point to any actual evidence. I can only point to feelings, but feelings are too subjective and too wrapped up with our emotions to constitute real compelling evidence.

So in the absence of real evidence, is faith a good enough reason to continue believing in gods? This too is very subjective, but for me, I have to admit that faith alone is not a good enough reason to continue believing in gods.

The thing is that I do still (just about) believe and I think that's primarily down to fear, which I am working on every day.

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