Why I Believe
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12-04-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 06:59 AM)Vera Wrote:  If you'll excuse the offtopic...

From my current BTB (bilge to be translated. And. It's a bestseller. And. Her previous one (also translated by yours truly, is being made into a movie



“No, really,” I say. “I get it. Dark matter is twenty- seven percent of the universe, you said?”
“Approximately.”
“And it’s the reason why objects don’t hurtle themselves off into deep dark space? It’s what keeps us bound together?”
Her skepticism turns into suspicion. “What is your addled poet brain getting at?”
“You’re gonna hate me.”
“Maybe,” she agrees.
“Dark matter is love. It’s the attracting force.”


Facepalm

From the same masterpiece:

I squeeze her hand. “You know the way we feel right now?
This connection between us that we don’t understand and wedon’t want to let go of? That’s God.”
“Holy hell,” she exclaims. “You poet boys are dangerous.”
She pulls my hand into her lap and holds it with both ofhers.
I tilt my head back and watch the sky, trying to pick shapesout of the clouds. “Here’s what I think,” I say. “I think we’re all connected, everyone on earth.”
She runs her fingertips over my knuckles. “Even the bad people?”
“Yes. But everyone has at least a little good in them.”
“Not true,” she says.
“Okay,” I concede. “But everyone has done at least one good thing in their lifetime. Do you agree with that?”
She thinks it over and then slowly nods.
I go on. “I think all the good parts of us are connected on some level. The part that shares the last double chocolate chip cookie or donates to charity or gives a dollar to a street musician or becomes a candy striper or cries at Apple commercials or says I love you or I forgive you. I think that’s God. God is the connection of the very best parts of us.”
“And you think that connection has a consciousness?” she asks.
“Yeah, and we call it God.”


FacepalmFacepalmFacepalm

Good God I hope you're stoned when you work. I couldn't even finish that excerpt without lighting up.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-04-2017, 12:07 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 12:13 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 09:00 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 08:23 AM)kim Wrote:  So? What's your hurry? Unless ...
Thanks for the advice, and you're right, I am trying to rush things.

Why you trying to toss it off in the first place? Is it interfering with your life? Tired of the cognitive dissonance? Making you a dick? I'm a fan of whatever makes your Gwynnies work for you. You don't work for the Gwynnies, the Gwynnies work for you.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-04-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 11:38 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Been thinking. There is no real evidence for the existence of any gods. I believe this because if we did have real evidence, then we'd all be believers. Some might not agree with what the bible teaches, but everyone would at least believe gods existed. At least the debates would not be about whether or not gods existed.
Thumbsup Thumbsup Thumbsup

(12-04-2017 11:38 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  So for me, the best evidence we have, are personal experiences. The problem here is that feelings are subjective and do not constitute real evidence. Science can hook us up to machines that can excite parts of the brain that result in the individual having religious experiences. Scientists know which parts of our brain "lights" up when we experience feelings of peace, joy, euphoria, etc. Point is, these feelings, if they are supernatural and divine, can be replicated by mankind in a laboratory. Drugs I'll bet can do similar. Even so, none of this disproves a belief in and of itself.
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But you have demonstrated that those experiences are no good evidence at all.

(12-04-2017 11:38 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  So in the absence of real evidence, is faith a good enough reason to continue believing in gods? This too is very subjective, but for me, I have to admit that faith alone is not a good enough reason to continue believing in gods.
It is not very subjective. Lets approach this problem in small steps, aka with "salami tactics".
Is faith a good enough reason to believe in anything? Well, depends. What is the goal in your life? If it is something like "i want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible", then you are interested in someting like "truth" (not the "personal truth" bullshit, but the one and single truth about all things around us). True is what can be shown to be real. Is that good enough for you? Ok.
Back to faith. Is faith a good tool to find out what is true and false about anything? Well, since you can believe in about everything by faith alone, even things contradicting each other, it obviously is not a good tool to find out what is true about anything.
Can it be a good tool to believe in (any) god? Wink

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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12-04-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 12:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 09:00 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Thanks for the advice, and you're right, I am trying to rush things.

Why you trying to toss it off in the first place? Is it interfering with your life? Tired of compartmentalization? Making you a dick? I'm a fan of whatever makes your Gwynnies work for you. You don't work for the Gwynnies, the Gwynnies work for you.

Girly is indeed, son of none. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-04-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 11:38 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  The thing is that I do still (just about) believe and I think that's primarily down to fear, which I am working on every day.

As I struggled with many, if not all, of the very things you so eloquently describe SeaJay there finally came a day when I crossed the Rubicon of “safety”.

Until that day I had struggled with the thought of, “How can God not save my soul even as I lose faith in Him, surely He must know the sincerity of my doubts.”

It was as though I had been walking a metaphysical tight-wire in my mind and fully believing that a safety net lay below me to catch me if I slipped and fell. Then on that day I looked down and realized that no net existed, it never had, and I had been making my way along my life’s journey without an invisible hand to catch me.

That moment was both frightening and liberating. I had made it this far I thought, not with the help of a god but with the help of my family and friends, through my own internal struggles and victories. The moment was not unlike hearing gunfire and explosions all around you and realizing that you were unscathed and unhurt.

Outwardly nothing had happened to me, but emotionally and intellectually I had set myself free like a beaten dog who one day breaks the chains tied to a stake in the ground. I stopped being confused and afraid, my life and everything and everyone around me came into sharp focus and life become more urgent. I found that I loved deeper than ever before.

Now that I only had to answer to myself I became my harshest critic, asking for forgiveness of no one but me and this has made me a more caring person, more aware of others and their struggles, and hopefully a more understanding human being. I think I am an infinitely better person than I used to be when I thought I could always be forgiven by a higher power because now I take full responsibility knowing that no safety net exists.

I am completely at peace with this. I know my life will end and the only things left will be the memories I create in others. With this in mind I constantly work on being kinder, more understanding, show my affections more often and go out of my way to help others. The rewards for me are immediate, just as when I fail to live up to my own expectations the punishment is immediate.

I do not fear death, what I fear is not helping and loving others to my fullest while I’m alive.

It is my hope that by sharing this you find a small morsel of insight that helps you through your own struggles and fears.

Good luck,
FC

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-04-2017, 12:58 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 12:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 09:00 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Thanks for the advice, and you're right, I am trying to rush things.

Why you trying to toss it off in the first place? Is it interfering with your life? Tired of the cognitive dissonance? Making you a dick? I'm a fan of whatever makes your Gwynnies work for you. You don't work for the Gwynnies, the Gwynnies work for you.

Interfering with life and tired of the cognitive dissonance

What are Gwynnies?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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12-04-2017, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 01:13 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 12:58 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 12:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why you trying to toss it off in the first place? Is it interfering with your life? Tired of the cognitive dissonance? Making you a dick? I'm a fan of whatever makes your Gwynnies work for you. You don't work for the Gwynnies, the Gwynnies work for you.

Interfering with life and tired of the cognitive dissonance

What are Gwynnies?

Whatever you make them to be. Whatever you need as a reference point. A point of grounding. Don't really matter what it is. Could be your neighbor Sam's dog Harvey. (okay, bad example.)

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-04-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 12:07 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 11:38 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Been thinking. There is no real evidence for the existence of any gods. I believe this because if we did have real evidence, then we'd all be believers. Some might not agree with what the bible teaches, but everyone would at least believe gods existed. At least the debates would not be about whether or not gods existed.
Thumbsup Thumbsup Thumbsup

(12-04-2017 11:38 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  So for me, the best evidence we have, are personal experiences. The problem here is that feelings are subjective and do not constitute real evidence. Science can hook us up to machines that can excite parts of the brain that result in the individual having religious experiences. Scientists know which parts of our brain "lights" up when we experience feelings of peace, joy, euphoria, etc. Point is, these feelings, if they are supernatural and divine, can be replicated by mankind in a laboratory. Drugs I'll bet can do similar. Even so, none of this disproves a belief in and of itself.
Thumbsup Thumbsup Thumbsup
But you have demonstrated that those experiences are no good evidence at all.

(12-04-2017 11:38 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  So in the absence of real evidence, is faith a good enough reason to continue believing in gods? This too is very subjective, but for me, I have to admit that faith alone is not a good enough reason to continue believing in gods.
It is not very subjective. Lets approach this problem in small steps, aka with "salami tactics".
Is faith a good enough reason to believe in anything? Well, depends. What is the goal in your life? If it is something like "i want to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible", then you are interested in someting like "truth" (not the "personal truth" bullshit, but the one and single truth about all things around us). True is what can be shown to be real. Is that good enough for you? Ok.
Back to faith. Is faith a good tool to find out what is true and false about anything? Well, since you can believe in about everything by faith alone, even things contradicting each other, it obviously is not a good tool to find out what is true about anything.
Can it be a good tool to believe in (any) god? Wink
Good post.

Faith isn't a good tool to believe in anything. I don't even have faith my wife loves me, I have confidence in the fact she loves me. I trust her too, but that's not really faith either

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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12-04-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 12:58 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 12:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why you trying to toss it off in the first place? Is it interfering with your life? Tired of the cognitive dissonance? Making you a dick? I'm a fan of whatever makes your Gwynnies work for you. You don't work for the Gwynnies, the Gwynnies work for you.

Interfering with life and tired of the cognitive dissonance

What are Gwynnies?

Gwynnies is the goddess. Although as atheists we are required to affirm that she does not exist, she qualifies under special exception paragraph 3 a "Minor deities of unquestionable benevolence". Plus she's hot.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-04-2017, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 01:19 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why I Believe
(12-04-2017 01:05 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Faith isn't a good tool to believe in anything. I don't even have faith my wife loves me, I have confidence in the fact she loves me. I trust her too, but that's not really faith either

I don't have to be able to do the math and science to have faith in the math and science. Faith, like reason, is just another tool, it's just that many theists don't know how to use it. Or reason for that matter.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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