Why I Believe
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-04-2017, 03:01 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2017 03:06 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why I Believe
Jesse: I have found your thinking to be absolutely on point. Unless they can provide evidence for what they are saying, I think you should dismiss these people.

To be fair, the average person isn't a very good critical thinker. So you don't think "normally", you think in a superior way.

Seajay: I would say that if you're using the language of "choosing not to believe", you already don't actually believe. Like I've been saying, making conscious changes to our beliefs isn't possible. I do think however that it's very possible to hold an emotional belief and a logical belief about the same thing, and these can be different. In your case, I think the emotional one has been drowning out the logical one. This is extremely common; I've experienced it myself. The more you concentrate on the cold hard logic, the less of a grip it will have. Only the truth can emerge from objective analysis.

You're clearly seeing through these bullshit apologetic arguments. They all start with the conclusion: God is good, and so whatever happens, it must be justified. The thing is, you can apply that to anything and anyone. And in particular, if God's machinations are beyond our ability to comprehend, we can't possibly know whether it's good, evil or inbetween.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Robvalue's post
15-04-2017, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2017 03:51 AM by JesseB.)
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 02:01 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Thanks for the replies and an interesting discussion

I find myself in a bit of a strange place right now. There are things in the bible I find repugnant and if the only bad things happening were the orders to kill over a million other people, that should be enough to cause me to walk away and have nothing to do with it. But I am still not ready to say 'enough is enough', and I think that's because I keep clinging to "There has to be a reason for all this bloodshed." That, and a fear of eternal punishment.

God is the sovereign of all life, He made us so He has the right to destroy us
Might makes right? For me, this kind of thinking shows a lack of empathy and isn't something an all loving all knowing all merciful being should be doing. It does however, smack of a primitive people who were still maturing as human beings.

There's a plan, God knows best and the ones killed will be rewarded in the next life
It still doesn't make the deed morally sound. I think this is why I also have issues with the story of Job.

The people killed were sacrificing children/raping/pillaging/murdering
Fine. Ok. But even if they were guilty of all the above (and I'm not sure they were), why not just lead the ancients to a land that's not occupied by anyone? We are talking about a time thousands of years ago when the world population was much less dense. There would have been spare land all over the place.

Etc.

I think my ties to Christianity are emotional (fear and familiarity). Perhaps from an intellectual perspective (reason and logic), I might have left years ago. But if I remain a Christian out of fear of punishment, what does that really tell me about what I believe?

One the one hand, if I fear, it must be because I do still believe (after all you can't scare me with Zeus and the concept of Hades).

On the other hand, if I knew there was no punishment, I might well choose not to believe.

That word 'choose' is intentional and it throws up the emotional mess my mind is currently experiencing.

The Messy Problem: I say I still believe because I fear being wrong and suffering eternal punishment, yet if there was no eternal punishment I might choose not to believe.

I'm not sure what this is telling me but it seems illogical. I'll try and unpack it:

> My fear of punishment influences me to believe
> If there was no eternal punishment I may well choose not to believe
> If I choose not to believe then evidently I do not want to believe
> If I do not want to believe, God also knows I do not want to believe
> If you take away my fear - I no longer believe

The end result is that God knows if there was no fear of eternal punishment, I would be agnostic at the very least by now.

Not sure where to take this so I am going to let it all percolate for a while.

Meh, don't feel too bad dude. The bible is full of bullshit and the population sizes mentioned in the bible have almost no bearing on reality based on what we can demonstrate to be based on Archeology and non bible documentation from cultures at the time (governments where accuracy was kinda important). I mean you can totally take solace knowing that almost none of that shit has ANY basis in reality, its just myths man. And.... you can kinda demonstrate this pretty easily.

Like how the Canaanites and Israelites are technically the same people. Stories detailing domesticated camels during periods of time where no camels were domesticated (seeing as the all the books old and new were written LONG after the events they describe were supposedly happening this isn't that surprising). No evidence at all of the exodus story whatsoever (if that story were true in any way there would be TONS of evidence with so many slaves leaving the area, also as stated above no need for the exodus as they were already in the land of Canaan they arose out of that population, they were in their native land all along). The fact that many well documented societies thrived and had NO problems surviving the supposed flood (cause it didn't happen). At almost no point in the bible where any numbers of populations are concerned is there any accuracy to what we can discern possible for the time periods. There's some great documentaries to help, at the moment I can't remember where to find them. Then you have books like "The Historicity of Jesus" ect The big problem is you have Science and Archaeologist and for the longest time they were simply afraid to talk about reality and "biblical scholars" who simply didn't care about factual data, would try to prove a presupposed idea, and engaged in some very questionable methods of validation (like assuming if people wrote things down long ago they couldn't possibly be lying or making things up cause so few people knew how to read/write.... during a period of... Greek.... Mythology ect...... Don't think too hard about if if you wanna remain a christian).

Basically the bible is bullshit, so .... as abhorrent as it is, its just shit people pulled out of their ass, no reason to be too distressed over their stupid unoriginal and pathetic imaginations (unoriginal since you can see how they clearly stole or plagiarized most of it from other religions).

I'm sure someone can link great video's and resources for you. I'm kinda tired atm and seem to be failing to pull up the one's I want to share.

Edit^ I think I found the one I was looking for.



DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes JesseB's post
15-04-2017, 03:19 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 02:01 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  > If I do not want to believe, God also knows I do not want to believe
> If you take away my fear - I no longer believe

The end result is that God knows if there was no fear of eternal punishment, I would be agnostic at the very least by now.

Not sure where to take this so I am going to let it all percolate for a while.

I've brought this point up to believers before and they just shrug it off. I suppose Jesus blood covers it all? But Jesus blood covering your sins is due to faith, so if your faith is weak, how much Jesus blood is covering your sins?

Would a perfect god require perfect faith? If that's the case, then any doubts are going to send you to hell. Could you possibly fool an omniscient being? Could you possibly know in any real sense if you have enough faith?


Matthew 7:14 - But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…


So in Jesus' own alleged words, very few get in. WTF does that mean?

Does it imply that you better have a very strong faith that few people have, including most of those that call themselves Christian?

Christianity is a mind fuck, there is no Christian that can claim with certainty that their faith is going to be enough for a judgemental god with impossible standards.

There is no Christian that can even claim that they believe the right things to begin with. Jesus was granted divinity at a later date, decided in committee on a vote.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."


So the question still stands, does god require perfect faith AND selling all you have?


Matthew 7:14 - But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…


The UNKNOWN writers of the gospel made a mythology that was untenable, there is still debate to this day whether you just need faith or faith and works, it has never been resolved and it never will be.

Paul comes along and offers nothing to resolve it except his fevered visions, claiming that his visions were The Truth while muddying the waters with contradictory explanations.

All any Christian can do is to cherry-pick which parts they like and believe it, hoping that they got it right, but the honest Christian will acknowledge these fundamental doctrinal differences have no solution, so you won't know until you get to heaven and you hope that god won't be too pissed if you misunderstood this convoluted message.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheInquisition's post
15-04-2017, 03:24 AM
RE: Why I Believe
@CJ (my new nic for you k cause I'm lazy and tired lol)

You say fear of being wrong, and fear of punishment.... Yet that's not one of your beliefs, you were manipulated into that fear.

Were you never introduced to those ideas you would NEVER have become a Christian... Just like you have no fear of Odin. Hate to break it to you, but you're still being manipulated, your feelings aren't your own right now. And your beliefs are not your own as long as you fear eternal punishment. (also choosing a god out of fear isn't love, just wanna point that out, you know what I mean by this I think).

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2017, 03:27 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 03:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Jesse: I have found your thinking to be absolutely on point. Unless they can provide evidence for what they are saying, I think you should dismiss these people.

To be fair, the average person isn't a very good critical thinker. So you don't think "normally", you think in a superior way.

Seajay: I would say that if you're using the language of "choosing not to believe", you already don't actually believe. Like I've been saying, making conscious changes to our beliefs isn't possible. I do think however that it's very possible to hold an emotional belief and a logical belief about the same thing, and these can be different. In your case, I think the emotional one has been drowning out the logical one. This is extremely common; I've experienced it myself. The more you concentrate on the cold hard logic, the less of a grip it will have. Only the truth can emerge from objective analysis.

You're clearly seeing through these bullshit apologetic arguments. They all start with the conclusion: God is good, and so whatever happens, it must be justified. The thing is, you can apply that to anything and anyone. And in particular, if God's machinations are beyond our ability to comprehend, we can't possibly know whether it's good, evil or inbetween.

Of course I am a "critical" or logical thinker... how could you be anything else. I understand that there are people not like this, but it's simply not something I am able to really relate to....

I don't like not being able to solve a puzzle... even if its crazy people with their irrational thoughts, I have a need to understand things, like an obsession really....

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2017, 03:46 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 03:27 AM)JesseB Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 03:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Jesse: I have found your thinking to be absolutely on point. Unless they can provide evidence for what they are saying, I think you should dismiss these people.

To be fair, the average person isn't a very good critical thinker. So you don't think "normally", you think in a superior way.

Seajay: I would say that if you're using the language of "choosing not to believe", you already don't actually believe. Like I've been saying, making conscious changes to our beliefs isn't possible. I do think however that it's very possible to hold an emotional belief and a logical belief about the same thing, and these can be different. In your case, I think the emotional one has been drowning out the logical one. This is extremely common; I've experienced it myself. The more you concentrate on the cold hard logic, the less of a grip it will have. Only the truth can emerge from objective analysis.

You're clearly seeing through these bullshit apologetic arguments. They all start with the conclusion: God is good, and so whatever happens, it must be justified. The thing is, you can apply that to anything and anyone. And in particular, if God's machinations are beyond our ability to comprehend, we can't possibly know whether it's good, evil or inbetween.

Of course I am a "critical" or logical thinker... how could you be anything else. I understand that there are people not like this, but it's simply not something I am able to really relate to....

I don't like not being able to solve a puzzle... even if its crazy people with their irrational thoughts, I have a need to understand things, like an obsession really....

I'm here if you need any support Heart

Many people allow their emotions to dictate beliefs in complex matters, or refuse to properly evaluate beliefs they have become accustomed to holding. You and I are not like that, or at least we try not to be. Some people don't try at all.

I would wager these people you speak of are emotionally uncomfortable with the valid logical conclusions you draw. I've experienced that myself.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Robvalue's post
15-04-2017, 03:49 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 03:46 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 03:27 AM)JesseB Wrote:  Of course I am a "critical" or logical thinker... how could you be anything else. I understand that there are people not like this, but it's simply not something I am able to really relate to....

I don't like not being able to solve a puzzle... even if its crazy people with their irrational thoughts, I have a need to understand things, like an obsession really....

I'm here if you need any support Heart

Many people allow their emotions to dictate beliefs in complex matters, or refuse to properly evaluate beliefs they have become accustomed to holding. You and I are not like that, or at least we try not to be. Some people don't try at all.

I would wager these people you speak of are emotionally uncomfortable with the valid logical conclusions you draw. I've experienced that myself.

Whoahya.... I've come to expect that, I've also gotten pretty good at ducking lol

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes JesseB's post
15-04-2017, 05:35 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 03:24 AM)JesseB Wrote:  @CJ (my new nic for you k cause I'm lazy and tired lol)

You say fear of being wrong, and fear of punishment.... Yet that's not one of your beliefs, you were manipulated into that fear.

Were you never introduced to those ideas you would NEVER have become a Christian... Just like you have no fear of Odin. Hate to break it to you, but you're still being manipulated, your feelings aren't your own right now. And your beliefs are not your own as long as you fear eternal punishment. (also choosing a god out of fear isn't love, just wanna point that out, you know what I mean by this I think).
In the beginning, I turned to Christianity as a child looking for reassurances due to my otherwise insecure childhood (therapy 101). Now, I continue in Christianity due to fear. It would be nice to say it's all out of love (and there may be a sliver of that) but it's primarily out of fear.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(14-04-2017 05:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(14-04-2017 05:40 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Worshipping is a choice, but belief is not.

That's a curious claim. Worth a ponder at least.
Depends on what one means by "worship". If you mean "going through the motions" then not doing that is a choice. If you mean "worshiping in spirit and in truth" then it's connected to belief and you can't choose it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2017, 05:43 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(14-04-2017 07:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-04-2017 03:00 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Is it possible to believe but not want to worship?

As far as labels go (atheism etc) is concerned, what would that be called?

Deism.
Not quite. Deism is a belief in an impersonal, non-interventionist god, which by definition doesn't require worship. Close though. Might even be a cigar involved.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: