Why I Believe
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-04-2017, 11:03 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2017 11:08 AM by kim.)
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 05:35 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  In the beginning, I turned to Christianity as a child looking for reassurances due to my otherwise insecure childhood (therapy 101). Now, I continue in Christianity due to fear. It would be nice to say it's all out of love (and there may be a sliver of that) but it's primarily out of fear.

The reassurances you clung to out of fear as a child, are still very much attached to this god concept. However as you have grown and developed other assurances, this god concept has begun to appear, as you said, "messy".

This god concept can no longer be a trusted assurance ... of anything. But you continue to associate it with saving you in some way.

When analyzed, this character from a book is most unpredictable and uncertain and even with your admitted intolerance for uncertainty, you cling to it - solely on the off chance that it might all just be another trick to punish you in the end.

The fact that the character is nonexistent does not diminish the perceived possibility of further emotional trauma.

You are emotionally caught in a mobius loop of threat.

Make sure you continue with a good trauma therapist. A secular one, who can help you to disabuse your self of this threatening god thing which you continually return to for salvation.

***
This god thing is not real and it can never hurt anyone, not even you. I know it won't do much good to hear that from me or anyone here - you have to say it to yourself everyday, maybe even for the rest of your life. It would just be irresponsible for me not to say it. Hug

Heart

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kim's post
15-04-2017, 11:10 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2017 11:56 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 10:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  The subconscious is in the driver seat. It's in control.

The funniest thing to me is its incessant need to create a spokesperson and let it think it's large and in charge. Why do that? It's like it doesn't trust itself or something.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like GirlyMan's post
15-04-2017, 11:54 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2017 12:12 PM by SeaJay.)
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 09:58 AM)JesseB Wrote:  Wait...... but we know who wrote the first Tora and it was NOT Moses......... It's even in that documentary I linked.
Exactly. But that Christian website is promoting the view that Moses did write the Pentateuch and so the NT authors were justified in quoting OT verses. If all this is correct, then it poses a massive dilemma for me as a believer, at least.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-04-2017, 12:11 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 10:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Seajay: Awesome, I'll have to check that out! Yeah, life has just managed to scrabble into existence in tiny pockets, and has fought tooth and nail to survive. The theistic mindset is often fixated only on our planet and doesn't consider the huge amounts of dead toxic space making up most of reality.

Shai: Thank you Smile It's been interesting delving right into a discussion about beliefs again. I came up with an analogy today for how things seem to me:

The subconscious is in the driver seat. It's in control.

The conscious part is a back-seat driver. It's watching, describing what is happening, and trying to tell the subconscious what to do. But the subconscious only does what the conscious part tells it to when it was going to do it anyway. In other words, the back seat driver has no say at all, but likes to think it has.

I do like that analogy a lot, now that you post it. Though to religious it up a bit, I know people who are all happy clappy Evangelical who talk about how they pray to one day be "martyred for Christ" by working in the majority Muslim nations that make up the 10-40 Window. I'd say that in your analogy, their subconscious is fully at the wheel, where I'd hope if actually put in that situation, their backseat driver of a conscious mind would say, "you know what? Let's briefly apostatize now and ask forgiveness later". They would still believe, but hopefully realize it gains nothing to let that zeal run away with them at a subconscious level in that sort of situation.

Need to think of a witty signature.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Shai Hulud's post
15-04-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 11:03 AM)kim Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 05:35 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  In the beginning, I turned to Christianity as a child looking for reassurances due to my otherwise insecure childhood (therapy 101). Now, I continue in Christianity due to fear. It would be nice to say it's all out of love (and there may be a sliver of that) but it's primarily out of fear.

The reassurances you clung to out of fear as a child, are still very much attached to this god concept. However as you have grown and developed other assurances, this god concept has begun to appear, as you said, "messy".

This god concept can no longer be a trusted assurance ... of anything. But you continue to associate it with saving you in some way.

When analyzed, this character from a book is most unpredictable and uncertain and even with your admitted intolerance for uncertainty, you cling to it - solely on the off chance that it might all just be another trick to punish you in the end.

The fact that the character is nonexistent does not diminish the perceived possibility of further emotional trauma.

You are emotionally caught in a mobius loop of threat.

Make sure you continue with a good trauma therapist. A secular one, who can help you to disabuse your self of this threatening god thing which you continually return to for salvation.

***
This god thing is not real and it can never hurt anyone, not even you. I know it won't do much good to hear that from me or anyone here - you have to say it to yourself everyday, maybe even for the rest of your life. It would just be irresponsible for me not to say it. Hug

Heart
Thank you Kim, I can't really argue with anything you say here.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like SeaJay's post
15-04-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: Why I Believe
A psychologist told me the subconscious is a maelstrom of primitive instinctive thoughts and emotions. It's where our monsters in the closet and bogeymen hide and wait. It's borne out of our ancestors' primal fear of the dark, when anything might emerge to tear them to shreds, and where every lightning storm was the end of the world. Our subconscious is the reason we sometimes take the stairs three at a time when running up those stairs as the light goes off.

Instinctive reactions.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like SeaJay's post
15-04-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 11:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 09:58 AM)JesseB Wrote:  Wait...... but we know who wrote the first Tora and it was NOT Moses......... It's even in that documentary I linked.
Exactly. But that Christian website is promoting the view that Moses did write the Pentateuch and so the NT authors were justified in quoting OT verses. If all this is correct, then it poses a massive dilemma for me as a believer, at least.

For you maybe, but that's only because you are willing to TRY and be honest with yourself and others, an admirable quality not shared by most Theists.... Then again.... I'm pretty sure you are no longer a theist....

After all the "unforgivable" sin is doubting the existence of the "Holy Spirit" there's no going back once you have even a single doubt (a totally unobtainable standard for everyone that Christians like to not think too much about)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes JesseB's post
15-04-2017, 12:32 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 12:21 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 11:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Exactly. But that Christian website is promoting the view that Moses did write the Pentateuch and so the NT authors were justified in quoting OT verses. If all this is correct, then it poses a massive dilemma for me as a believer, at least.

For you maybe, but that's only because you are willing to TRY and be honest with yourself and others, an admirable quality not shared by most Theists.... Then again.... I'm pretty sure you are no longer a theist....

After all the "unforgivable" sin is doubting the existence of the "Holy Spirit" there's no going back once you have even a single doubt (a totally unobtainable standard for everyone that Christians like to not think too much about)

> “Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” (Thomas Jefferson) Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Gwaithmir's post
15-04-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 11:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 09:58 AM)JesseB Wrote:  Wait...... but we know who wrote the first Tora and it was NOT Moses......... It's even in that documentary I linked.
Exactly. But that Christian website is promoting the view that Moses did write the Pentateuch and so the NT authors were justified in quoting OT verses. If all this is correct, then it poses a massive dilemma for me as a believer, at least.

Have no fear. The Jews got their best computer scientists working on it. (I actually met the dude once at a conference. He was accompanied by a dude who didn't know dick about CS and looked like a younger, scarier version of the "Is it safe?" dude from Marathon Man. I thought, "So that's what Mossad looks like." ) Thumbsup

An Israeli algorithm sheds light on the Bible

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
15-04-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(15-04-2017 11:10 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 10:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  The subconscious is in the driver seat. It's in control.

The funniest thing to me is its incessant need to create a spokesperson and let it think it's large and in charge. Why do that? It's like it doesn't trust itself or something.

A lovely scapegoat, like the president of the US Tongue

(15-04-2017 12:11 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 10:01 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Seajay: Awesome, I'll have to check that out! Yeah, life has just managed to scrabble into existence in tiny pockets, and has fought tooth and nail to survive. The theistic mindset is often fixated only on our planet and doesn't consider the huge amounts of dead toxic space making up most of reality.

Shai: Thank you Smile It's been interesting delving right into a discussion about beliefs again. I came up with an analogy today for how things seem to me:

The subconscious is in the driver seat. It's in control.

The conscious part is a back-seat driver. It's watching, describing what is happening, and trying to tell the subconscious what to do. But the subconscious only does what the conscious part tells it to when it was going to do it anyway. In other words, the back seat driver has no say at all, but likes to think it has.

I do like that analogy a lot, now that you post it. Though to religious it up a bit, I know people who are all happy clappy Evangelical who talk about how they pray to one day be "martyred for Christ" by working in the majority Muslim nations that make up the 10-40 Window. I'd say that in your analogy, their subconscious is fully at the wheel, where I'd hope if actually put in that situation, their backseat driver of a conscious mind would say, "you know what? Let's briefly apostatize now and ask forgiveness later". They would still believe, but hopefully realize it gains nothing to let that zeal run away with them at a subconscious level in that sort of situation.

Thanks Smile

Also, no matter how much someone professes that God is watching over them and keeping them safe, their subconscious/instincts will make them leap the fuck out of the way of a car.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Robvalue's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: