Why I Believe
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17-04-2017, 04:16 AM
RE: Why I Believe
I know, I've considered most of this, aside from Miller being the 'chosen one'. It does sound mental for God to work this way. But man oh man, the anxiety it provokes is intense and when it's in full flow, my rational mind is swamped by the irrational mind.

Also, why did I have to wait almost six and a half years for 'confirmation'? Doesn't make any sense.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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17-04-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(17-04-2017 04:16 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Doesn't make any sense.

Doesn't make sense if you assume that God is communicating with you in this bizarre fashion but makes perfect sense if you conclude that it's just your brain latching on to coincidences and ascribing meaning to them.

Besides which, this position implies that you, Kenny Miller and God are in some super special relationship - this *cannot* be a workable way for God to communicate with all his minions.

Also consider the purported content of the message: what exactly is God saying? "Believe in me"? What the fuck is that supposed to do for you?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-04-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(17-04-2017 04:16 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I know, I've considered most of this, aside from Miller being the 'chosen one'. It does sound mental for God to work this way. But man oh man, the anxiety it provokes is intense and when it's in full flow, my rational mind is swamped by the irrational mind.

Also, why did I have to wait almost six and a half years for 'confirmation'? Doesn't make any sense.

That's the way confirmation bias works, you look for confirmation of something and don't put a clear definition of what, where and when the criteria of confirmation is met, then you can assume just about anything you want, anytime you want, in anyway that you want as confirmation of a presupposition.

It's post-hoc rationalization, and that's where religion gets it's power, that's where superstition gets it's power, that's where imaginary things get their power- FROM your imagination.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-04-2017, 06:49 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Thank you for grounding me and enforcing the rational mind in me

This place is my online support group and already it's been a huge help to me

Thank you all again

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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17-04-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(17-04-2017 03:18 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Ugh, here we go again No

To recap, I sometimes get words that literally just pop into my mind from nowhere (not audible sounds, just words). I do not consciously place them there at all. They just pop into my head.
---
I was told this was just my subconscious mind playing tricks on me. But I asked myself how do I know? If these words were showing me glimpses of the future, then I know I'd be destined for hell because I can't predict the future but Heaven can.
AND THEN ...
This has been my life since 2010, experiencing these 'words popping' into my head, and then hearing/seeing/reading these words at some later time, and seeing that as evidence I am going to hell.
----
I'm actually scared right now, it's an awful feeling. The timing of the above seems too fine to be a coincidence. This is my fear, that I am being told I am going to hell. I really hate this. I was doing really well lately but it's episodes like this that just bring it all back Sadcryface

The reason these thoughts "pop into your head" is because you have flooded your active waking life with this god /heaven /hell /faith vocabulary and have done this since childhood. Your mind does not have anything to replace this rhetoric.

You can retrain your brain to halt these damaging and irrational thoughts from eating away at your life. The main thing you need to do is to continually and actively counter all these degrading thoughts with positive, grounding, rational thoughts and phrases.

Find real ideas, rational thoughts, calming emotions, positive visualizations of human beings doing simple human things and impress these into your mind. Do this consistently and many times over.

It is entirely up to you how you handle your situation but, until you are better able to control your own mind, you may want to avoid these damaging subjects altogether. Since you are easily drawn into religious notions and irrational ideas concerning faith, it would be best to avoid religious discussions and discussions of faith.

Your thoughts are yours and your mind is yours. It's your job to convince yourself of this.

Heart

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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17-04-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(17-04-2017 03:18 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Ugh, here we go again No

To recap, I sometimes get words that literally just pop into my mind from nowhere (not audible sounds, just words). I do not consciously place them there at all. They just pop into my head.

When I first thought I blasphemed the Holy Spirit in my mind back in 2010 (I really couldn't stop the thought), it worried me to the point that when I was falling asleep, I saw images of me burning and even had words pop into my mind saying "Destined for hell."

I was told this was just my subconscious mind playing tricks on me. But I asked myself how do I know? If these words were showing me glimpses of the future, then I know I'd be destined for hell because I can't predict the future but Heaven can. This has been my life since 2010, experiencing these 'words popping' into my head, and then hearing/seeing/reading these words at some later time, and seeing that as evidence I am going to hell.

This is what just happened, and serves as a great example of what I go through:

6 December 2010: Over six years ago, I had the word "Kevin" or "Kenny Miller" just pop into my head (I've kept a thought record since 2010). Kenny Miller is a footballer, and 3 days later I saw him score a goal and 'point up to the sky/heavens'. Saw this as a sign that God was telling me the word 'Kenny Miller' actually came from Him (from God).

Additional: I later realised I'd watched Kenny Miller play in two football games during the last 2 weeks.

15 October 2016: Whilst watching the Walking Dead series on my laptop, a sports channel on the T.V showed Kenny Miller scoring a goal for his team and at that moment, on the Walking Dead, a character got bit by a zombie and that character said “This is God’s Plan. He’ll take care of me. Always has.

17 April 2017: Today, the same sports channel (it's always on in the background) shows Kenny Miller score a goal again, and at the exact same time I glanced at the T.V and saw this, on the documentary I was watching about atheism, the narrator said "These words were communicated straight from the mind of God." Sad

I'm actually scared right now, it's an awful feeling. The timing of the above seems too fine to be a coincidence. This is my fear, that I am being told I am going to hell. I really hate this. I was doing really well lately but it's episodes like this that just bring it all back Sadcryface

I have a question, have you ever had a random thought or idea pop into your head seemingly from nowhere? (that you didn't ascribe to any "higher power" I mean I sure have, I think it's pretty normal)

If yes, do you think thoughts and ideas are different in some way from the one's relating to the god concept?

I mean if you have ideas that randomly pop into your head (as I think most people do) and you've conditioned yourself with words and phrases about a god, then it stands to reason that a certain percentage of those random thoughts might pop up carrying known concepts you conditioned yourself to think.

How do I put this... Once I had a dream I was in a valley surrounded by mountains, green fields as far as the eye could see and a single cabin surrounded by a wood fence and shit tons of white geese everywhere (cause.... that makes sense.... lol) In this dream the geese were realllly stupid and would do things like drown themselves if I didn't constantly watch them. A young boy walked up to me, as we talked every time I looked at him he looked different, young boy, woman, old man ect. In my dream this being was "god" and we talked for hours psychoanalyzing the geese, it felt profound and deep the best analysis I had ever done.... And then I woke up, reflected on my dream and realized.... This freshmen level sophistry is bullshit, damn how disappointing. You mean to tell me this is the best I can do? See our talk wasn't profound, it felt that way when I experienced it, but... when I reflected on it later I saw how weak the ideas and concepts in my dream were.

This wasn't a prophetic dream or anything, it was just a dream. My mind was processing ideas and concepts as I slept, organizing them. Not unlike how windows uses an app called "Superfetch" to organize itself (at the most annoying times possible) to "perform better" (which is debatable if there's a meaningful performance gain from this process I think). Similar things can happen when you are awake. Those "aha!" moments and if those random ideas that pop into your head are functional and useful you'll feel like a genius. You aren't but hey it's a nice feeling anyway.

What I'm trying to say is, it's possible you are making more out of this than what it is, that you are seeing things that simply aren't there. One thing is for sure, if you practice this it is going to happen, and you can change gods or even switch to a fictional character and this will continue to happen with whatever you replace it with. If your god wasn't your imagination it would stand to reason that everyone's random thoughts of that nature would point to the same static character, and not whatever they conditioned themselves to expect.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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17-04-2017, 09:09 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(17-04-2017 08:43 AM)kim Wrote:  
(17-04-2017 03:18 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Ugh, here we go again No

To recap, I sometimes get words that literally just pop into my mind from nowhere (not audible sounds, just words). I do not consciously place them there at all. They just pop into my head.
---
I was told this was just my subconscious mind playing tricks on me. But I asked myself how do I know? If these words were showing me glimpses of the future, then I know I'd be destined for hell because I can't predict the future but Heaven can.
AND THEN ...
This has been my life since 2010, experiencing these 'words popping' into my head, and then hearing/seeing/reading these words at some later time, and seeing that as evidence I am going to hell.
----
I'm actually scared right now, it's an awful feeling. The timing of the above seems too fine to be a coincidence. This is my fear, that I am being told I am going to hell. I really hate this. I was doing really well lately but it's episodes like this that just bring it all back Sadcryface

The reason these thoughts "pop into your head" is because you have flooded your active waking life with this god /heaven /hell /faith vocabulary and have done this since childhood. Your mind does not have anything to replace this rhetoric.

You can retrain your brain to halt these damaging and irrational thoughts from eating away at your life. The main thing you need to do is to continually and actively counter all these degrading thoughts with positive, grounding, rational thoughts and phrases.

Find real ideas, rational thoughts, calming emotions, positive visualizations of human beings doing simple human things and impress these into your mind. Do this consistently and many times over.

It is entirely up to you how you handle your situation but, until you are better able to control your own mind, you may want to avoid these damaging subjects altogether. Since you are easily drawn into religious notions and irrational ideas concerning faith, it would be best to avoid religious discussions and discussions of faith.

Your thoughts are yours and your mind is yours. It's your job to convince yourself of this.

Heart
My main reason to come here is to find out another perspective on what it is I confess to believe. These new perspectives challenge my faith and that in turn gives me comfort (ironically enough). I said earlier that out of 10 my believing was a solid 5.1. Right now that's probably 5.075

It sounds insane but if I can whittle my belief down to a low enough measure, the prospect of hell won't scare me because I won't believe in it.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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17-04-2017, 09:19 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  I have a question, have you ever had a random thought or idea pop into your head seemingly from nowhere? (that you didn't ascribe to any "higher power" I mean I sure have, I think it's pretty normal)
Great question. Yes. I distinctly remember the following popping into my mind years before 2010 (when things got real bad for me):

"I'm going to have to take the dog for a walk now."

That's quite a long 'mind-pop' (I've researched this and whilst they are pretty rare in therapeutic circles, that's what they are known as) and not only that, whilst I do not ever 'hear' anything, I recognised that sentence as coming from my brother in law. For the record, he doesn't have a dog.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  If yes, do you think thoughts and ideas are different in some way from the one's relating to the god concept?
I think it's all coming from my own mind. The problem is my anxiety agitates my irrational mind and that overrides my rational mind. Also, when 'coincidences' happen (they don't always - most of the time nothing occurs), this seems to strengthen the grip concerning me worrying if they're coming from heaven.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  I mean if you have ideas that randomly pop into your head (as I think most people do) and you've conditioned yourself with words and phrases about a god, then it stands to reason that a certain percentage of those random thoughts might pop up carrying known concepts you conditioned yourself to think.
Absolutely agree 100% and I KNOW for a fact that past therpists (and two psychologists) would agree with you too. They've told me. But the nature of my anxiety and obsessive thoughts is that I keep worrying 'what if they're wrong!?'.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  How do I put this... Once I had a dream I was in a valley surrounded by mountains, green fields as far as the eye could see and a single cabin surrounded by a wood fence and shit tons of white geese everywhere (cause.... that makes sense.... lol) In this dream the geese were realllly stupid and would do things like drown themselves if I didn't constantly watch them. A young boy walked up to me, as we talked every time I looked at him he looked different, young boy, woman, old man ect. In my dream this being was "god" and we talked for hours psychoanalyzing the geese, it felt profound and deep the best analysis I had ever done.... And then I woke up, reflected on my dream and realized.... This freshmen level sophistry is bullshit, damn how disappointing. You mean to tell me this is the best I can do? See our talk wasn't profound, it felt that way when I experienced it, but... when I reflected on it later I saw how weak the ideas and concepts in my dream were.
I find that time is a great healer. No matter how raw the anxiety, given enough time, it's like I can distance myself for the irrational and see the rational.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  This wasn't a prophetic dream or anything, it was just a dream. My mind was processing ideas and concepts as I slept, organizing them. Not unlike how windows uses an app called "Superfetch" to organize itself (at the most annoying times possible) to "perform better" (which is debatable if there's a meaningful performance gain from this process I think). Similar things can happen when you are awake. Those "aha!" moments and if those random ideas that pop into your head are functional and useful you'll feel like a genius. You aren't but hey it's a nice feeling anyway.
Understood. If there's one thing I've learned (from research and therapists), it's that the mind is complex and we are only just starting to know anything about it.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  What I'm trying to say is, it's possible you are making more out of this than what it is, that you are seeing things that simply aren't there. One thing is for sure, if you practice this it is going to happen, and you can change gods or even switch to a fictional character and this will continue to happen with whatever you replace it with. If your god wasn't your imagination it would stand to reason that everyone's random thoughts of that nature would point to the same static character, and not whatever they conditioned themselves to expect.
Understood.

All that makes sense, and I'm not feeling too bad now. What I have to learn is apply rational reason and logic when these 'mind pops' happen.

Thanks for the reply

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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17-04-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(17-04-2017 09:19 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  I have a question, have you ever had a random thought or idea pop into your head seemingly from nowhere? (that you didn't ascribe to any "higher power" I mean I sure have, I think it's pretty normal)
Great question. Yes. I distinctly remember the following popping into my mind years before 2010 (when things got real bad for me):

"I'm going to have to take the dog for a walk now."

That's quite a long 'mind-pop' (I've researched this and whilst they are pretty rare in therapeutic circles, that's what they are known as) and not only that, whilst I do not ever 'hear' anything, I recognised that sentence as coming from my brother in law. For the record, he doesn't have a dog.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  If yes, do you think thoughts and ideas are different in some way from the one's relating to the god concept?
I think it's all coming from my own mind. The problem is my anxiety agitates my irrational mind and that overrides my rational mind. Also, when 'coincidences' happen (they don't always - most of the time nothing occurs), this seems to strengthen the grip concerning me worrying if they're coming from heaven.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  I mean if you have ideas that randomly pop into your head (as I think most people do) and you've conditioned yourself with words and phrases about a god, then it stands to reason that a certain percentage of those random thoughts might pop up carrying known concepts you conditioned yourself to think.
Absolutely agree 100% and I KNOW for a fact that past therpists (and two psychologists) would agree with you too. They've told me. But the nature of my anxiety and obsessive thoughts is that I keep worrying 'what if they're wrong!?'.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  How do I put this... Once I had a dream I was in a valley surrounded by mountains, green fields as far as the eye could see and a single cabin surrounded by a wood fence and shit tons of white geese everywhere (cause.... that makes sense.... lol) In this dream the geese were realllly stupid and would do things like drown themselves if I didn't constantly watch them. A young boy walked up to me, as we talked every time I looked at him he looked different, young boy, woman, old man ect. In my dream this being was "god" and we talked for hours psychoanalyzing the geese, it felt profound and deep the best analysis I had ever done.... And then I woke up, reflected on my dream and realized.... This freshmen level sophistry is bullshit, damn how disappointing. You mean to tell me this is the best I can do? See our talk wasn't profound, it felt that way when I experienced it, but... when I reflected on it later I saw how weak the ideas and concepts in my dream were.
I find that time is a great healer. No matter how raw the anxiety, given enough time, it's like I can distance myself for the irrational and see the rational.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  This wasn't a prophetic dream or anything, it was just a dream. My mind was processing ideas and concepts as I slept, organizing them. Not unlike how windows uses an app called "Superfetch" to organize itself (at the most annoying times possible) to "perform better" (which is debatable if there's a meaningful performance gain from this process I think). Similar things can happen when you are awake. Those "aha!" moments and if those random ideas that pop into your head are functional and useful you'll feel like a genius. You aren't but hey it's a nice feeling anyway.
Understood. If there's one thing I've learned (from research and therapists), it's that the mind is complex and we are only just starting to know anything about it.

(17-04-2017 09:00 AM)JesseB Wrote:  What I'm trying to say is, it's possible you are making more out of this than what it is, that you are seeing things that simply aren't there. One thing is for sure, if you practice this it is going to happen, and you can change gods or even switch to a fictional character and this will continue to happen with whatever you replace it with. If your god wasn't your imagination it would stand to reason that everyone's random thoughts of that nature would point to the same static character, and not whatever they conditioned themselves to expect.
Understood.

All that makes sense, and I'm not feeling too bad now. What I have to learn is apply rational reason and logic when these 'mind pops' happen.

Thanks for the reply

Glad I could help

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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19-04-2017, 04:29 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2017 04:45 AM by SeaJay.)
RE: Why I Believe
What do you think about the Ontological argument?

Ontological arguments are arguments, for the conclusion that God exists, from premises which are supposed to derive from some source other than observation of the world - e.g., from reason alone. In other words, ontological arguments are arguments from nothing but analytic, a priori and necessary premises to the conclusion that God exists.

The first, and best-known ontological argument was proposed by St. Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th. century C.E. In his Proslogion, St. Anselm claims to derive the existence of God from the concept of a being than which no greater can be conceived. St. Anselm reasoned that, if such a being fails to exist, then a greater being—namely, a being than which no greater can be conceived, and which exists—can be conceived. But this would be absurd: nothing can be greater than a being than which no greater can be conceived. So a being than which no greater can be conceived—i.e., God—exists.


https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontol...arguments/

What? I'm not sure I understand it but it sounds profound (and that makes me uneasy - primarily because I don't understand it). It also sounds like it's saying God exists because God exists.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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