Why I Believe
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19-04-2017, 06:30 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(19-04-2017 04:29 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  It also sounds like it's saying God exists because God exists.
That is all it is saying. A non-sequitur wrapped in a deepity.

One of the obvious problems is that god is constrained in this argument by the limitations of human cognition. Just because you or I can't conceive of anything greater than X doesn't mean there isn't something greater than X. Nor does it have any bearing on the existence of X itself, for that matter.

I am put in mind of Shakespeare here: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreampt of in your philosophy". Which is a common argument theists used to say that science is limited and isn't even the right tool with which to contemplate god. THAT argument RELIES on the limitations of human understanding to mount a vain attempt to hide god in the "gaps" of human knowledge, and, not incidentally, from any logical arguments against god. And yet the ontological argument uses the exact same limitations to PROVE god. Talk about logical inconsistency!

The ontological argument goes out on a limb and then proceeds to start sawing the limb off. If you're going to rely on human inability to conceive of anything greater than god to define god, you are making god's very existence and the limits of his power dependent on human mentation. By that logic, the fact that I cannot conceive of a believable god at all, winks such a god out of existence. You can't have it both ways.
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19-04-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(19-04-2017 05:32 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(19-04-2017 05:02 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Here's the argument distilled (somewhat)

(1) It is a conceptual truth (i.e. true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined

(2) God exists as an idea in the mind.

(3) A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.

(4) Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e. the greatest possible being that exists).

(5) But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (it's a contradiction to imagine a being greater than the greatest being)

(6) Therefore, God exists.


Huh

> Bullshit!

> Obviously, I can think of a being greater than the Christian God, and I can support this assertion via scripture. To wit:

"And they shall stand in despair before the white cliffs of the world, and shall chant from their empty tomes in vain, for their words are nothing! And Erú shall prevail against His enemies and they shall be cast into the Void, for their enchantments are naught and their gods are helpless before Him." (The Silmarillion, 17:82)"

> You can believe in any being with all of your might. That does not make this being anything other than a figment of your imagination.

> Point #1 is based upon a logical fallacy known as Argument from Assertion. The first point being false, the rest of the argument collapses.

> "That which may be asserted without evidence may also be dismissed without evidence." (Christopher Hitchens)
Good points. I also thought (1) was assuming way too much to base an entire argument upon

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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19-04-2017, 09:01 AM
RE: Why I Believe
I can't wait until I am of a progressive enough mind that I can work things like this out for myself.

Thanks all, very much Smile

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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19-04-2017, 09:11 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2017 09:47 AM by OakTree500.)
RE: Why I Believe
(19-04-2017 09:01 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I can't wait until I am of a progressive enough mind that I can work things like this out for myself.

Thanks all, very much Smile

I suppose point 1 is: read the bible, but actively read it. Challenge things you read, try to remember certain lines/passages, so when something comes up to contradict it, you'll notice.

And as others have said making an argument for/against something isn't 100% proof. If somebody gives you an argument that god exists, listen/read the words and think "is this just tons of confusing garbage that doesn't really say anything?", if the answer is yes, its exactly what you think it is.

Sometimes having a progressive mind just means not really thinking about things too much, but questioning the why/how and what backs up those claims. No atheist will come into a debate without TONS of evidence, because that's what you need.

"I don't do magic, Morty, I do science. One takes brains, the other takes dark eye liner" - Rick
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19-04-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(19-04-2017 09:11 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  No atheist will come into a debate without TONS of evidence, because that's what you need.

That or the ability to spot and instinctively not trust a used car salesman.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-04-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: Why I Believe
How is the system we are part of best described? life, non life, what?
Is there anything we can be doing that is not actually the universe doing?
Is there any isolated part in the system?

I don't do omni type gods. But there are more valid, less valid, or the same validity associated with answers.
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20-04-2017, 02:22 AM
RE: Why I Believe
"Human beings would not be truly human unless there was some test to determine their faithfulness to God"

I can refute this because it's just assumption, there's no way the person actually knows this to be true. Also, why would proving our faith to someone make us truly human? That doesn't make sense to me

"The Bible says that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed within the reach of Adam. Why do such a thing? This introduces us to one of the consistent themes of Scripture - God tests His people. God wishes to see how we react to Him and His commandments. God's testing is to bring out the best in us, not the worst."

I can't refute this though. I don't think so. I mean, I know I wouldn't put my children in a room with a cardboard box holding a deadly snake, tell them not to open the box and then walk away. He also says God wishes to see how we react to Him. But surely an omniscient god already knows?

But still.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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20-04-2017, 02:52 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 02:22 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  "The Bible says that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed within the reach of Adam. Why do such a thing? This introduces us to one of the consistent themes of Scripture - God tests His people. God wishes to see how we react to Him and His commandments. God's testing is to bring out the best in us, not the worst."

I can't refute this though. I don't think so. I mean, I know I wouldn't put my children in a room with a cardboard box holding a deadly snake, tell them not to open the box and then walk away. He also says God wishes to see how we react to Him. But surely an omniscient god already knows?

But still.

I've mentioned this before, but generally, you have it already. Why would a being that KNOWS all outcomes of what you're going to do, bother testing you in the first place?

My example was: Leaving a small explosive device in my house, and telling my daughter not to touch the big red button on it....then being surprised when my house exploded.

God doing something, that he knew without any doubt, would change the whole set up of his supposedly created new world....and then god is angry about it? God creates heaven/earth. On Earth he makes Eden for Adam/Eve to live in. The perfect place apparently. God then kicks them out, and trashes everything, over something he KNEW would happen?

Bullshit, I say.

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20-04-2017, 03:23 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Thanks for the reply Oaktree

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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20-04-2017, 03:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 02:22 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  "Human beings would not be truly human unless there was some test to determine their faithfulness to God"

I can refute this because it's just assumption, there's no way the person actually knows this to be true. Also, why would proving our faith to someone make us truly human? That doesn't make sense to me

"The Bible says that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed within the reach of Adam. Why do such a thing? This introduces us to one of the consistent themes of Scripture - God tests His people. God wishes to see how we react to Him and His commandments. God's testing is to bring out the best in us, not the worst."

I can't refute this though. I don't think so. I mean, I know I wouldn't put my children in a room with a cardboard box holding a deadly snake, tell them not to open the box and then walk away. He also says God wishes to see how we react to Him. But surely an omniscient god already knows?

But still.

> Consider the fact that a priesthood will find a people a lot easier to control if they can be persuaded to remain ignorant and not think for themselves. The whole Adam & Eve story has nothing to do with an actual couple. It's all about keeping the common people in a state of guilt and subservient to a priesthood. Knowledge is for the ruling class; namely, the priests. Consider
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