Why I Believe
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20-04-2017, 03:54 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Here's another one, I came across it watching the 'Atheist Bible Study' Youtube vid.

Genesis 19 31-38. Lot and his daughter in a cave, we all know the story. The daughters get their father drunk and then sleep with him, one on the first night, the second the next night.

31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."

34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.”

36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab. He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.c He is the father of the Ammonites to this day.


One one hand, Lot's daughters were concerned their father's line would die out. Although it's not explicitly mentioned, I think they thought the entire human race was wiped out because they (erroneously) believed there wasn't a man left in the earth to sleep with them. So here's a question.

If you had two daughters and there were no more men left on the earth, would you sleep with them - to preserve the human race and/or to preserve your line?

If to preserve my own lineage, no.

If to preserve the human race, I think I might. Though whether I would be able to get over my natural instincts not to sleep with family members I don't know.

We aren't told if they did the deed to just preserve their father's line or to preserve the human race as well but I think it was both because it mentions the daughters thought there were no more men on the earth.

On the other hand. If the daughters were doing a good deed, why did they have to get their father drunk? It sounds to me like he would not have been a willing and they knew this. In this case, it is a double rape.

Put another way, if this went to a court of law, would the daughters be excused because they slept with their father because they thought they were preserving their father's line and the human race?

It's called a double date-rape, but were their intentions noble? I'm not so much trying to justify their acts, as I am trying to see it from their point of view.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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20-04-2017, 04:01 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 03:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  If you had two daughters and there were no more men left on the earth, would you sleep with them - to preserve the human race and/or to preserve your line?

If to preserve my own lineage, no.

If to preserve the human race, I think I might. Though whether I would be able to get over my natural instincts not to sleep with family members I don't know.


Gasp

Well, that escalated quickly.

Generally speaking, even if it wasn't morally wrong, it wouldn't preserve the human race. The thought process behind this is that they this because no other men where on earth, at least in their minds. The problem with this is that circle of inbreeding begins.

Eventually the supposed remains of the human race would become so inbred, they would probably die out in the end, due to birth defects/other genetically caused problems, stemming from inbreeding.

Hence why these tails of "repopulating the earth" are also garbage. Adam and Eve had 2 sons....work out the rest for yourself.

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20-04-2017, 04:06 AM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2017 04:09 AM by SeaJay.)
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 04:01 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 03:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  If you had two daughters and there were no more men left on the earth, would you sleep with them - to preserve the human race and/or to preserve your line?

If to preserve my own lineage, no.

If to preserve the human race, I think I might. Though whether I would be able to get over my natural instincts not to sleep with family members I don't know.


Gasp

Well, that escalated quickly.

Generally speaking, even if it wasn't morally wrong, it wouldn't preserve the human race. The thought process behind this is that they this because no other men where on earth, at least in their minds. The problem with this is that circle of inbreeding begins.

Eventually the supposed remains of the human race would become so inbred, they would probably die out in the end, due to birth defects/other genetically caused problems, stemming from inbreeding.

Hence why these tails of "repopulating the earth" are also garbage. Adam and Eve had 2 sons....work out the rest for yourself.

True. The inbreeding would stop it dead in its tracks. Even the Amish today are having problems and there's a good few more than just three people involved.

Just to clarify on what I said above. I would have to be bladderated out of my skull; I could not do 'anything' sober. So I guess rethinking it, no I couldn't/wouldn't willingly sleep with my family. Let's say I can understand 'why' they did it, but it still feels 'badwrong'.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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20-04-2017, 04:13 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 04:06 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 04:01 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Gasp

Well, that escalated quickly.

Generally speaking, even if it wasn't morally wrong, it wouldn't preserve the human race. The thought process behind this is that they this because no other men where on earth, at least in their minds. The problem with this is that circle of inbreeding begins.

Eventually the supposed remains of the human race would become so inbred, they would probably die out in the end, due to birth defects/other genetically caused problems, stemming from inbreeding.

Hence why these tails of "repopulating the earth" are also garbage. Adam and Eve had 2 sons....work out the rest for yourself.

True. The inbreeding would stop it dead in its tracks. Even the Amish today are having problems and there's a good few more than just three people involved.

Just to clarify on what I said above. I would have to be bladderated out of my skull; I could not do 'anything' sober. So I guess rethinking it, no I couldn't/wouldn't willingly sleep with my family. Let's say I can understand 'why' they did it, but it still feels 'badwrong'.

It IS badwrong, I'm not going to have a go, but maybe rethink ever typing that again....even if hypothetical lol. Laugh out load

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20-04-2017, 05:05 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(19-04-2017 07:20 PM)AB517 Wrote:  How is the system we are part of best described? life, non life, what?

What 'system' are we part of? If you are talking about the universe then non-life applies to most of it and life applies to some of it but neither term describes it fully. I guess I don't understand the question....

Quote:Is there anything we can be doing that is not actually the universe doing?

In what sense? There's zero evidence that the universe itself is sentient so saying that the universe is "doing" anything seems misleading.

Quote:Is there any isolated part in the system?

Again, in what sense? Some things are effectively isolated from each other but nothing is isolated from the universe.

Quote:I don't do omni type gods. But there are more valid, less valid, or the same validity associated with answers.

More valid, less valid, or equally valid what?

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20-04-2017, 05:11 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 02:22 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  "The Bible says that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was placed within the reach of Adam. Why do such a thing? This introduces us to one of the consistent themes of Scripture - God tests His people. God wishes to see how we react to Him and His commandments. God's testing is to bring out the best in us, not the worst."

I can't refute this though. I don't think so. I mean, I know I wouldn't put my children in a room with a cardboard box holding a deadly snake, tell them not to open the box and then walk away. He also says God wishes to see how we react to Him. But surely an omniscient god already knows?

But still.

Still what? If Adam and Eve did not already have knowledge of good and evil then they had no way to know that disobeying had consequences. The "test" was completely unfair in every way. This supposedly omniscient god took a couple of pre-school children and sat that down to take a college entrance exam and then punished them for failing it.

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20-04-2017, 05:24 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 05:11 AM)unfogged Wrote:  This supposedly omniscient god took a couple of pre-school children and sat that down to take a college entrance exam and then punished them for failing it.

"ADAM, EVE....THOU HAST FAILED THINE EDEN ENTRANCE EXAM. YOU SCORED 0%. THE SECTION ON QUANTUM MECHANICS WAS SHOCKING, YOU DIDN'T EVEN SHOW YOUR WORKINGS...."
Adam: "Quantum what?"
"GET OUT YOU SILLY HUMANS"

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20-04-2017, 05:55 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 03:54 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Here's another one, I came across it watching the 'Atheist Bible Study' Youtube vid.

Genesis 19 31-38. Lot and his daughter in a cave, we all know the story. The daughters get their father drunk and then sleep with him, one on the first night, the second the next night.

31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."

34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.”

36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab. He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.c He is the father of the Ammonites to this day.


One one hand, Lot's daughters were concerned their father's line would die out. Although it's not explicitly mentioned, I think they thought the entire human race was wiped out because they (erroneously) believed there wasn't a man left in the earth to sleep with them. So here's a question.

If you had two daughters and there were no more men left on the earth, would you sleep with them - to preserve the human race and/or to preserve your line?

If to preserve my own lineage, no.

If to preserve the human race, I think I might. Though whether I would be able to get over my natural instincts not to sleep with family members I don't know.

We aren't told if they did the deed to just preserve their father's line or to preserve the human race as well but I think it was both because it mentions the daughters thought there were no more men on the earth.

On the other hand. If the daughters were doing a good deed, why did they have to get their father drunk? It sounds to me like he would not have been a willing and they knew this. In this case, it is a double rape.

Put another way, if this went to a court of law, would the daughters be excused because they slept with their father because they thought they were preserving their father's line and the human race?

It's called a double date-rape, but were their intentions noble? I'm not so much trying to justify their acts, as I am trying to see it from their point of view.

As a pragmatist I'd say that if you are so drunk that you don't recognize your daughter as you schtup her then you're too drunk to get it up.

Honestly why even try to explain and condone incest? Dodgy

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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20-04-2017, 07:20 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 05:11 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If Adam and Eve did not already have knowledge of good and evil then they had no way to know that disobeying had consequences.
Excellent point

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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20-04-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 05:55 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Honestly why even try to explain and condone incest? Dodgy
I don't think he's doing either.

As you point out the story is absurd on its face.

Also, the blame for this "sin" seems to be put in the "scheming" daughters, not so much on the father. Which is par for the course when it comes to rape or incest.

As far as the contrived hypothetical goes, I don't even have an equivalent cultural referent to make it a believable scenario. The daughter's concern was the preservation of the family bloodline, not the preservation of the human race. This is an artificially imposed cultural and (at the time) quasi-religious notion with no real basis in reality, other than the extent that it was largely about property inheritance and how the elderly and infirm were cared for. If people didn't keep reproducing in certain ways, the whole family structure fell into chaos.

We have a faint echo of it today in that most people would prefer to have biological children than to adopt, because their children serve as a means of vicariously living out their own missed opportunities and they get some faux credit for their offspring's accomplishments.* In any case if someone wanted to keep a bloodline going in the 21st century it can be done without sex.

So that puts this under "Pointless Speculation for $5". I'll take "Religious Trivia for $50" any day.

* This cuts both ways, of course, if your children are even bigger fuck-ups than you were.
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