Why I Believe
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-04-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 05:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  
SeaJay Wrote:What is the difference between belief and faith concerning?
Belief is useless and worthless thing. Another name for belief is "dead faith"
Faith is strong conviction that leads to actions. Actions bring fruits(consequences).
Faith is important, belief can be easily thrown to a garbage can.

> Faith is belief with no rational evidence to back it up.

> Yes, faith can foster strong convictions leading to actions---like flying jetliners into skyscrapers or setting off bombs in crowded public areas.

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” (Benjamin Franklin)

“Faith, fanatic faith, once wedded fast to some dear falsehood, hugs it to the last.” (Thomas Moore)

“Faith is a necessary fraud at best.” (Charles Churchill)

“Faith, n., Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.” (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)

“Faith is believing what you know ain't so.” (Mark Twain) Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Gwaithmir's post
20-04-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 05:11 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 01:58 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Is there a difference between belief and faith?
Here again it's important to define terms. Faith in common usage is either religious faith (belief without a requirement of evidence) or simple experience-based trust. In other words, near polar opposites.

Belief is the acceptance that something is true or exists. That acceptance can have a sound basis (trust based on past experience or other data such as the experience of others, scientific research, etc) or an unsound basis (the failed epistemology of religious faith).

So beliefs have a basis; religious faith is a poor basis for beliefs.

I agree. I define belief as "the conditional acceptance of an idea in a way that affects reasoning or action."

Belief, as you say, can have a sound basis, or an unsound basis. The mind needs beliefs to form a model of the world, and make choices.

When I first became a believer, I remember that faith came as a choice to believe something that I desperately wanted, yet knew couldn't really be so. That choice, reinforced by friends and the church, let me have a belief in God for a time (the cognitive dissonance drowned out by the good feelings).

But, the mind has a way of fighting against dissonance. One other believes or one doesn't. Eventually reality hits back with crises, and forces one to confront the empty promises of gods.

Using "faith" as a path to belief is an exercise in self delusion, IMO. Faith is like fighting for belief, out of emotional need, while your skeptical mind is left bound and gagged.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Happy Skeptic's post
20-04-2017, 09:17 PM
RE: Why I Believe
Faith is I love my Gwynnies. I can see why a bunch of atheists don't get it, I didn't get it until that little creep showed up. I'm trying to think what I do have, maybe it's the blush, the dilated pupils, something... I talk to believers and they see a man of faith.

But for me it's the fiction of the LC entangled with the fact of the dang Gwynnies. I'm leaning towards ya can't make yerself believe, 'cause I can't. Otherwise I'd get a fancy hat and profitize the LC to EZ street. Big Grin

[Image: ZF1ZJ4M.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes houseofcantor's post
20-04-2017, 09:38 PM
RE: Why I Believe
762 posts in and I'm beginning to believe your fear of "hell" cannot be upended by reason. Whatever is at the root of that fear may not even have anything to do with religion. In several posts you've mentioned therapy - perhaps more therapy might help (or if still in therapy, don't quit). Our subconscious can never be directly affected by our conscious mind (else there wouldn't be a subconscious), but it can be influenced by conscious efforts, although, I think, like a gyroscope, the directions it takes can often veer 90 degrees off the vector of our intent. Professional therapy should be able to recognize both the tilt of the gyroscope and how to reorient it off the axis of fear.

I'm 62 and still fear spiders. I know exactly what plucks the tense wire of that fear: their 8 leg configuration, which vibrates a deep DNA rooted terror, inherited from ancestors 62 million years ago who had reason fear spiders. To this day I can't pick up the smallest spider, and flail in panic the few times I think some spider has dropped onto me. There's no reason whatsoever in it, and over the years I've applied reason to learn all about spiders to try to overcome that fear. It hasn't abated a molecule.

I also know that locking me in a room filled with spiders for 30 minutes would finally quench the fear. But my fear of them is not so crippling I want to spend such an uncomfortable half hour. Instead I trap spiders with cups and sheets of cardboard when I find them in the house and take them elsewhere (I can do that much at least). I'll probably die still scared of spiders, but not regretting never overcoming it.

Likewise, if your fear of hell isn't otherwise crippling your general enjoyment of life, perhaps you can just ignore it. You've amassed such a vast bank of reason against it you're probably able by this time to confidently rationalize your deserving of anything but hell, so while you may still believe it's "out there", it might not loom as a true threat anymore.

In which case therapy may be superfluous. But that's a call only you can make.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Airportkid's post
20-04-2017, 11:40 PM
RE: Why I Believe
Something you might also consider is my Mama's line of reasoning:
  • If God condemns my little boy to hell then he's a fucked up God
  • Oooooooo that God better send my boy to heaven, or I'll give him a piece of my mind!

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
21-04-2017, 01:43 AM
RE: Why I Believe
You're doing so well, SeaJay Smile

You've mounted your case really strongly. You have logic, reason and evidence all on the side of "there is no reason to believe there is a hell". You have accepted that the fear is the part that is saying "but what if it's real, I can't know for sure".

Remember though: which hell? Christianity is just one of multiple religions, and in fact one of an infinite number of possible ones. How long have you spent worrying about all the hells (or similar) that are claimed to be in other religions? They can't all be real, unless all religions are really just the same thing and God doesn't care which one you are in. If that's the case, it sounds like a pretty laid back God to me. Not the kind that would roast people forever just for asking questions or not believing in non-evident claims. If he doesn't even care if you're a Christian or a Muslim for instance, any kind of punishment for not being one of those makes no sense.

Otherwise, that leaves us with a maximum of one "hell" being real, out of all of them. Why are you so worried and fixated about this particular one, but able to dismiss all the others as fiction? You know exactly why: fear. You've been conditioned to be afraid of a concept. But that's all it is. No one can ever give any more details about it. Nothing real. Because it's not real. Of course, one can always ask, "How do we know for sure?" That sliver of doubt is what chains so many people into religion. But how do we know for sure that taking a step forward won't cause our head to explode? We don't. We just have no reason at all to think that it will. And that's the best we can ever do.

How do we know that believing in the Christian God won't piss off the "real" god, who will then send you to his own hell? This is an equally "likely" proposition, but one you will no doubt instantly dismiss as pure silly fantasy.

Keep going my friend. The fear may not go away completely, but in time, I'm confident you can squash it with reason and evidence. Things that are true stay true after thorough investigation. Things that are made-up bullshit forever float around in the mist of "what if..." and never become more concrete.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-04-2017, 02:33 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 05:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  
SeaJay Wrote:Interesting fact (well, I think so), nowhere in the bible are we told the serpent was satan
Fact: there is a claim in the fairy tale Revelation 12: 9: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world... "
There can be many serpents though, of which the one cast out is just one of them. The serpent represents crafty and sly individuals of which the devil is obviously one as is the crafty beast in Genesis is one.

(20-04-2017 05:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  When Satan talked to Adam and Eve they saw a man(spirit) and not a snake. But why did Moses write "serpent"? Because Moses (and John and all prophets of God) knew that the only way for Satan to deceive people is to look and to sound like God. If Satan showed what he really is and if he said what he really thinks nobody would believe him.
So, Moses called Satan "serpent" because Satan deceived Eve by promising her what only God YHWH can promise:" you surely shall not die".
This is assumption and a modifying of the verses. Genesis tells us a serpent (a crafty beast) spoke, and not a human. It says nothing that the devil disguised himself as a serpent.

SeaJay Wrote:Also, Genesis says the serpent was the craftiest of all 'beasts' that were made.
(20-04-2017 05:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  Isn't according to the fairy tale Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 15:2 "beast" is one of Satan's names?
He is called 'the' beast yes, but the serpent is called 'a' beast.

But I am not persuaded either way and it isn't important to me right now, so if you say what you say then that's fine with me. I've no dog in this fight as they say, I just thought it was an interesting fact (perhaps I should not have used the term fact).

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-04-2017, 02:37 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 05:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  
SeaJay Wrote:What is the difference between belief and faith concerning?
Belief is useless and worthless thing. Another name for belief is "dead faith"
Faith is strong conviction that leads to actions. Actions bring fruits(consequences).
Faith is important, belief can be easily thrown to a garbage can.
I think you just described the opposite of what I think the terms are.

Faith is a belief in things hoped for but not seen so it's not based on empirical evidence
Belief can also be called a faith of sorts but it can also be based on empirical evidence

I have faith my wife loves me

I believe my sons really are my sons

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like SeaJay's post
21-04-2017, 02:43 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Your wife loving you cannot be empirically assessed (except perhaps with a brain scan) but it is, however, based on a lot of evidence (I assume).

Having (blind) faith that someone loves you would involve something like continuing to believe it even if they start beating you and showed no signs they love you at all.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Robvalue's post
21-04-2017, 02:50 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(20-04-2017 09:38 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  762 posts in and I'm beginning to believe your fear of "hell" cannot be upended by reason. Whatever is at the root of that fear may not even have anything to do with religion. In several posts you've mentioned therapy - perhaps more therapy might help (or if still in therapy, don't quit). Our subconscious can never be directly affected by our conscious mind (else there wouldn't be a subconscious), but it can be influenced by conscious efforts, although, I think, like a gyroscope, the directions it takes can often veer 90 degrees off the vector of our intent. Professional therapy should be able to recognize both the tilt of the gyroscope and how to reorient it off the axis of fear.

I'm 62 and still fear spiders. I know exactly what plucks the tense wire of that fear: their 8 leg configuration, which vibrates a deep DNA rooted terror, inherited from ancestors 62 million years ago who had reason fear spiders. To this day I can't pick up the smallest spider, and flail in panic the few times I think some spider has dropped onto me. There's no reason whatsoever in it, and over the years I've applied reason to learn all about spiders to try to overcome that fear. It hasn't abated a molecule.

I also know that locking me in a room filled with spiders for 30 minutes would finally quench the fear. But my fear of them is not so crippling I want to spend such an uncomfortable half hour. Instead I trap spiders with cups and sheets of cardboard when I find them in the house and take them elsewhere (I can do that much at least). I'll probably die still scared of spiders, but not regretting never overcoming it.

Likewise, if your fear of hell isn't otherwise crippling your general enjoyment of life, perhaps you can just ignore it. You've amassed such a vast bank of reason against it you're probably able by this time to confidently rationalize your deserving of anything but hell, so while you may still believe it's "out there", it might not loom as a true threat anymore.

In which case therapy may be superfluous. But that's a call only you can make.
Good points

I am slowly removing the fear of hell by researching the claims of the bible. It is working, but I understand it might take a few more months/years.

It might take something I say to myself, for example, "I no longer believe", or "I see no evidence for gods so I am an atheist." The act of saying it might be the act of everything falling into place.

I've almost said it a few times these last two weeks but I haven't. Reason being, this is a massive step for me so I would like to be as sure as I can because there is no going back (apparently). Even if I KNEW there was no hellfire, Christianity has been a part of my life since I was a child.

(a) I believe in hell but hope it isn't real
(b) I don't believe in hell but fear it might be real

I'm in category (b), and the frustration is that whilst I'm pretty sure hell/lake of fire is not a real place, that 1% uncertainty is still enough to keep me worrying to the point I still cannot let go.

My point is that I hope more research will continue to whittle away at the fear of hell to the point I can make decisions not clouded in fear and anxiety.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like SeaJay's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: