Why I Believe
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21-04-2017, 02:59 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Just think of it this way, if hell is real, we'll all be there with you buddy. Thumbsup

Hell, is a funny concept to me personal. Like its a punishment for doing bad things on earth. Have I ever done anything considered Evil? Not to my knowledge. In fact I dare say I've acted more "christian" than most actual Christians do in their lives. So fuck it. I don't believe in heaven or hell, but should there be a judgement I'd like to think you really are judged on your actions, not the amount of praise you gave a deity in you life. And if the latter is the case, I wouldn't want to go in there anyway.

Plus when you think about the old problem of Murderers/child rapists/so on, can be absolved of their sins prior to death, so in theory they would get into heaven? Fuck that.

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21-04-2017, 03:04 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 01:43 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  You're doing so well, SeaJay Smile

You've mounted your case really strongly. You have logic, reason and evidence all on the side of "there is no reason to believe there is a hell". You have accepted that the fear is the part that is saying "but what if it's real, I can't know for sure".

Remember though: which hell? Christianity is just one of multiple religions, and in fact one of an infinite number of possible ones. How long have you spent worrying about all the hells (or similar) that are claimed to be in other religions? They can't all be real, unless all religions are really just the same thing and God doesn't care which one you are in. If that's the case, it sounds like a pretty laid back God to me. Not the kind that would roast people forever just for asking questions or not believing in non-evident claims. If he doesn't even care if you're a Christian or a Muslim for instance, any kind of punishment for not being one of those makes no sense.

Otherwise, that leaves us with a maximum of one "hell" being real, out of all of them. Why are you so worried and fixated about this particular one, but able to dismiss all the others as fiction? You know exactly why: fear. You've been conditioned to be afraid of a concept. But that's all it is. No one can ever give any more details about it. Nothing real. Because it's not real. Of course, one can always ask, "How do we know for sure?" That sliver of doubt is what chains so many people into religion. But how do we know for sure that taking a step forward won't cause our head to explode? We don't. We just have no reason at all to think that it will. And that's the best we can ever do.

How do we know that believing in the Christian God won't piss off the "real" god, who will then send you to his own hell? This is an equally "likely" proposition, but one you will no doubt instantly dismiss as pure silly fantasy.

Keep going my friend. The fear may not go away completely, but in time, I'm confident you can squash it with reason and evidence. Things that are true stay true after thorough investigation. Things that are made-up bullshit forever float around in the mist of "what if..." and never become more concrete.
Thanks for the encouraging words Rob, much appreciated.

Whilst people can understand my fear, I don't think they quite understand how it has affected me. It's not a 'fear', it is a 'phobia'. I have cried over it, gone without food because of it, for the most part become housebound because of it, spent thousands (in 7 years) due to it, and even seriously thought of becoming a voluntary patient in a local mental hospital because of it.

It has given me some of the lowest, scariest, and darkest moments of my entire life. I have been on my knees in tears because I felt there literally was no hope for me. It's mentally crippling me. As a psychologist said, it has traumatised me. Officially. I absolutely detest it and it has simply ruined the last six and a half years of my life.

So whilst nobody can prove to me hell is not real, I can build up a massive repository of evidence that will eventually lead me to believe the bible is not true.

I'm very thankful to everyone here for the support they have given me. Simply put, it's been invaluable and you'll never know how much it helps.

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21-04-2017, 03:10 AM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2017 03:15 AM by SeaJay.)
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 02:59 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Just think of it this way, if hell is real, we'll all be there with you buddy. Thumbsup
I've thought on this too. But we'd be in so much agony we would lose our minds and wouldn't be able to comfort one another.

(21-04-2017 02:59 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Hell, is a funny concept to me personal. Like its a punishment for doing bad things on earth. Have I ever done anything considered Evil? Not to my knowledge. In fact I dare say I've acted more "christian" than most actual Christians do in their lives. So fuck it. I don't believe in heaven or hell, but should there be a judgement I'd like to think you really are judged on your actions, not the amount of praise you gave a deity in you life. And if the latter is the case, I wouldn't want to go in there anyway.
I think I am much nearer to admitting I don't want to worship a creator who does what he does than I am saying "I don't believe". If that makes sense. The cognitive dissonance I have with believing yet knowing some of the stuff that goes on in the bible, is driving me mad.

(21-04-2017 02:59 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Plus when you think about the old problem of Murderers/child rapists/so on, can be absolved of their sins prior to death, so in theory, they would get into heaven? Fuck that.
There is that too.

Also, what if you did go to heaven but you knew a loved one was burning forever in unspeakable agony?

What if you had options and those options were:

(a) Heaven can make you forget your loved ones. No. The memories of loved ones are precious to us all
(b) Heaven could annihilate you. Yes.
© Heaven could arrange it so you could join them. Wow. Just realised I think I would choose option 'c'. Which is quite an eye opener seeing how I fear hell so much.

I also understand that hell cannot exist from a purely rational viewpoint. None of it makes any sense to me yet the fear it might still be real, is bad enough to keep me hanging onto what faith I have left.

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21-04-2017, 03:22 AM
RE: Why I Believe
That's the thing though, will we be agony? Apparently there are numerous verses that suggest you'll just flat out die, and thats it [check here for more on that ]

Plus to my knowledge the bible only mentions a lake of fire and the furnace. So like how big is hell? A lake can be defined in size, so if Hell is the size of the USA, for example, plenty of room to not be in a furnace or the lake?

And, my main point is, who does the punishment itself? Satan? But why would Satan, the lord of all things evil, do something FOR god? its just a backwards thought really.

Bottom line is this. When you die, you're done. So stop spending the time you have analyzing a place you'll never see/go to, and enjoy your life. Heck, if it makes you feel better, I'll say this right now:

Dear ...*ahem*..."god", should heaven and hell be real, and you planned on sending Seajay down there. Send me for a double eternity sentance, as I'm going there anyway. Thumbsup

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21-04-2017, 03:47 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 03:10 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  None of it makes any sense to me yet the fear it might still be real, is bad enough to keep me hanging onto what faith I have left.

There's the rub, ain't it? You're not hanging on to god, you're hanging on to religion.

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21-04-2017, 03:52 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 03:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:10 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  None of it makes any sense to me yet the fear it might still be real, is bad enough to keep me hanging onto what faith I have left.

There's the rub, ain't it? You're not hanging on to god, you're hanging on to religion.
I'm not sure I follow your meaning. Isn't God my religion?

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21-04-2017, 04:19 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 03:52 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  There's the rub, ain't it? You're not hanging on to god, you're hanging on to religion.
I'm not sure I follow your meaning. Isn't God my religion?

May be wrong, but I believe he means you're hanging onto the overall aspect of religion itself, whilst you don't necessarily need any of that to believe in a god. I know many people who believe in god as a concept, but don't do any of the religious stuff that comes with it.

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21-04-2017, 04:29 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 03:52 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  There's the rub, ain't it? You're not hanging on to god, you're hanging on to religion.
I'm not sure I follow your meaning. Isn't God my religion?

Ideally religion is a methodology for seekers to find god. Somewhere along the way a bunch of priests discovered a way to market the path and line their pockets ('Cept Scientology, which skips the dumb and gets right to the profit) and what better way to keep an ass in a pew than if you leave, you burn?

If they didn't get you young, all of this would be painfully obvious. But when one grows up in a culture of sheep sworn in loyalty to a shepherd it becomes exceedingly difficult to listen beyond the braying of the herd.

It's meant to be that way, they've had eons to perfect their technique. The fact that it is failing worldwide only emphasizes that there is nothing to it.

I was just thinking how that they proclaim that god created all when their book begins the world was void without form (but) god's face was upon the waters... how much weirdness is actually going on there?

If I had a book it would begin the tao that can be spoken is not the eternal tao. Which is awesomesauce. One still cannot begin better than that... where was I?

Oh, this god, attentive enough to paint every petal on every flower across a trillion worlds will just arbitrarily toss his greatest creation into a lake of fiver foreverz for the least little issue... oh, and iron chariots. Because there's nothing that sets the tri-omni knees to knocking like blue barbarians whipping around in metal go karts.

So I was thinking one time, once all there was was god, and god wanted to create?

With what? Skeptical me goes...
The only thing available, skeptical me, I reply.

The body of god. That's where we're at, the breath, the animus, the soul; from god in birth, to god in death. To become something new. There's nothing really to fear there. I became something new just in the process of writing this.

TL;DR: No. God is not religion. God is something you already have. Religion is somebody else telling you what to do with it.

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21-04-2017, 04:30 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 04:19 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:52 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I'm not sure I follow your meaning. Isn't God my religion?

May be wrong, but I believe he means you're hanging onto the overall aspect of religion itself, whilst you don't necessarily need any of that to believe in a god. I know many people who believe in god as a concept, but don't do any of the religious stuff that comes with it.
Well, I don't like organised religion with all the going to church, singing hymns, going to bible classes, having to pay tithes, etc. I always tell people when the topic comes up that I don't belong to any Christian church but I do have a relationship with Jesus.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-04-2017, 04:34 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 04:29 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:52 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I'm not sure I follow your meaning. Isn't God my religion?

Ideally religion is a methodology for seekers to find god. Somewhere along the way a bunch of priests discovered a way to market the path and line their pockets ('Cept Scientology, which skips the dumb and gets right to the profit) and what better way to keep an ass in a pew than if you leave, you burn?

If they didn't get you young, all of this would be painfully obvious. But when one grows up in a culture of sheep sworn in loyalty to a shepherd it becomes exceedingly difficult to listen beyond the braying of the herd.

It's meant to be that way, they've had eons to perfect their technique. The fact that it is failing worldwide only emphasizes that there is nothing to it.

I was just thinking how that they proclaim that god created all when their book begins the world was void without form (but) god's face was upon the waters... how much weirdness is actually going on there?

If I had a book it would begin the tao that can be spoken is not the eternal tao. Which is awesomesauce. One still cannot begin better than that... where was I?

Oh, this god, attentive enough to paint every petal on every flower across a trillion worlds will just arbitrarily toss his greatest creation into a lake of fiver foreverz for the least little issue... oh, and iron chariots. Because there's nothing that sets the tri-omni knees to knocking like blue barbarians whipping around in metal go karts.

So I was thinking one time, once all there was was god, and god wanted to create?

With what? Skeptical me goes...
The only thing available, skeptical me, I reply.

The body of god. That's where we're at, the breath, the animus, the soul; from god in birth, to god in death. To become something new. There's nothing really to fear there. I became something new just in the process of writing this.

TL;DR: No. God is not religion. God is something you already have. Religion is somebody else telling you what to do with it.
Thanks for clarifying Thumbsup

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