Why I Believe
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21-04-2017, 04:44 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 04:19 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:52 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I'm not sure I follow your meaning. Isn't God my religion?

May be wrong, but I believe he means you're hanging onto the overall aspect of religion itself, whilst you don't necessarily need any of that to believe in a god. I know many people who believe in god as a concept, but don't do any of the religious stuff that comes with it.

For many, it's the rituals that make it real. You're supposed to do the sinners prayer and automagically become infested with Jesus, but that almost never happens. People hold on to the concept of hell because they desire justice, to see wrongs righted and the evil punished; but this is the conditioning of the zero sum game, where the environment demands there be winners and losers.

Yet in the scope of the eternal and infinite, it is totally pointless. All attributes are valid.

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21-04-2017, 05:03 AM
RE: Why I Believe
I can't pretend to imagine how horrible and damaging the idea of hell has been to you, I agree. I've heard many cases of it being traumatising, and it is absolutely sickening. If people continue to do it now, with the common knowledge that it is psychologically damaging, then I don't know what else to call it but child abuse.

The nearest I have come is when I've been at the very worst with my depression. Every second felt like it was dragging on forever, and I was being mentally tormented. Just being alive was a kind of agony that pierced way beyond anything physical.

(21-04-2017 04:30 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 04:19 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  May be wrong, but I believe he means you're hanging onto the overall aspect of religion itself, whilst you don't necessarily need any of that to believe in a god. I know many people who believe in god as a concept, but don't do any of the religious stuff that comes with it.
Well, I don't like organised religion with all the going to church, singing hymns, going to bible classes, having to pay tithes, etc. I always tell people when the topic comes up that I don't belong to any Christian church but I do have a relationship with Jesus.

What does your relationship entail? Or is it just what you tell people?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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21-04-2017, 05:21 AM
RE: Why I Believe
One is conditioning and one is chemicals in the brain. I've done the prophet smash to the one but I still need to find the right chemicals for the other, valuable rob. Wink

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21-04-2017, 05:37 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 03:04 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Whilst people can understand my fear, I don't think they quite understand how it has affected me. It's not a 'fear', it is a 'phobia'.

You are describing mental illness. There are treatments, such as therapy/counseling and medication, that can help. I hope that you are trying some combination of these.

There are a number of posters here who deal with various mental illnesses. Personally, I have depression/anxiety issues. You might consider starting a thread in the support section to address that aspect specifically.

For me personally, it was helpful to hear other people describe the mechanics of their depression. It helps to realize that it is something internal for me and that my brain is not processing the way it should.

Hope that helps.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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21-04-2017, 05:38 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 05:03 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I can't pretend to imagine how horrible and damaging the idea of hell has been to you, I agree. I've heard many cases of it being traumatising, and it is absolutely sickening. If people continue to do it now, with the common knowledge that it is psychologically damaging, then I don't know what else to call it but child abuse.

The nearest I have come is when I've been at the very worst with my depression. Every second felt like it was dragging on forever, and I was being mentally tormented. Just being alive was a kind of agony that pierced way beyond anything physical.

(21-04-2017 04:30 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Well, I don't like organised religion with all the going to church, singing hymns, going to bible classes, having to pay tithes, etc. I always tell people when the topic comes up that I don't belong to any Christian church but I do have a relationship with Jesus.

What does your relationship entail? Or is it just what you tell people?
Good question. It entails trying to live according to Jesus' teaching. Turn the other cheek and all that. In other words, I don't need to keep going to church to know that giving to the needy is a good thing to do.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-04-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 05:37 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 03:04 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Whilst people can understand my fear, I don't think they quite understand how it has affected me. It's not a 'fear', it is a 'phobia'.

You are describing mental illness. There are treatments, such as therapy/counseling and medication, that can help. I hope that you are trying some combination of these.

There are a number of posters here who deal with various mental illnesses. Personally, I have depression/anxiety issues. You might consider starting a thread in the support section to address that aspect specifically.

For me personally, it was helpful to hear other people describe the mechanics of their depression. It helps to realize that it is something internal for me and that my brain is not processing the way it should.

Hope that helps.
Thank you

Yes I'm still in therapy and been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, G.A.D, C-PTSD, and intrusive thoughts. The G.A.D (Generalized Anxiety Disorder) seems to be the real bad stuff though.

I take 45mg Mirtazapine in the night and 20mg Citalopram in the morning.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-04-2017, 05:44 AM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2017 05:48 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why I Believe
Thanks Smile

Are you doing them because you consider them good things to do, or because Jesus said them? I'd be confident it's the former, because Jesus said a lot of questionable stuff too that I doubt you would follow. If the good actions are things you'd do anyway, how does the relationship actually work?

I've asked before (on another forum) what exactly Christian "morality" can tell us that isn't already obvious to any well-balanced atheist. The answer I got was nothing. (One guy made things even worse by saying it's not obvious to the atheist that gay marriage is wrong.)

Just to share: I'm seriously depressed. I'm on 300mg Venlafaxine every day, which is above the normal recommended dose. And it still only just keeps me afloat. I have struggled with suicidal thoughts for over 10 years.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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21-04-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 05:44 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Just to share: I'm seriously depressed. I'm on 300mg Venlafaxine every day, which is above the normal recommended dose. And it still only just keeps me afloat. I have struggled with suicidal thoughts for over 10 years.

Yay for Effexor! Gotta love the instant withdrawal when you miss a dose. And the insomnia. Oh well. Still beats the alternative.

I take that, can't remember the exact dosage, but 300 is more than I take.

Good luck and stay strong!

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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21-04-2017, 05:59 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 05:44 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Thanks Smile

Are you doing them because you consider them good things to do, or because Jesus said them? I'd be confident it's the former, because Jesus said a lot of questionable stuff too that I doubt you would follow. If the good actions are things you'd do anyway, how does the relationship actually work?

I've asked before (on another forum) what exactly Christian "morality" can tell us that isn't already obvious to any well-balanced atheist. The answer I got was nothing. (One guy made things even worse by saying it's not obvious to the atheist that gay marriage is wrong.)

Just to share: I'm seriously depressed. I'm on 300mg Venlafaxine every day, which is above the normal recommended dose. And it still only just keeps me afloat. I have struggled with suicidal thoughts for over 10 years.
I'm genuinely sorry to hear that Rob. I hope you realise you come across as a caring person and just to let you know, you can always drop me pms if you want to just chat about stuff.

A support system might seem obvious to others, but it wasn't until I started discussing things on this forum how important a support system is. Sometimes, even though it's only been a couple of weeks if that, I'm not sure what I would have done.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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21-04-2017, 06:00 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 05:44 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  One guy made things even worse by saying it's not obvious to the atheist that gay marriage is wrong.)

I'd like to introduce him to a couple of atheists I know personally, then. They will get on like a *lake* on fire, so to speak.

On the other hand, *this* atheist does fail to see the "obvious" wrongness of letting "them gayz" marry, so maybe he has a point Consider

Also, screw their "morality", obsessed with sex and the sexial lives of *others*. Oh, but they have the ten commandments, no? The basis of all morality, no? I mean, it doesn't get any more moral than this, no? Of course you shouldn't covet the property of others, no?

"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

(But what if thy neighbour has a great ass? After all, you're only human, can't you at least check him out when he's going about his business?)

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