Why I Believe
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-04-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 02:18 PM)kim Wrote:  You people talk too much. Angry You made my soup cold.
um... didn't physics make your soup cold? Tongue
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like julep's post
05-04-2017, 06:43 PM
Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 05:57 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 05:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  1. To be convinced there is no hell (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)

So what evidence is there for hell? Zero, nada, zilch.

What evidence is there for a story, made up by people to scare you into believing?

Quite a bit:

Hell -
This Wikipedia entry is just a start, there are numerous resources that will break down how hell was created and how it evolved over time. The Old Testament version is much different than the New Testament version.

This also applies to the bible as a whole, who wrote it and why? The answers are quite interesting, but can you really accept it? The answer can ultimately free you from the fear of hell.





I normally don't watch such long videos in a thread but I watched this one and found it to be worth the time. Thanks for posting it up.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes KUSA's post
05-04-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 08:43 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 08:41 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Of all the religions in the world I actually find Christianity to be the most vile and disgusting. It's a form of extortion with a lot of sado masochism throw in for good measure.

First the person, usually a child, is told they are a bad, sinful, horrible person. Over time they are convinced that, yes indeed, they are miserable, wicked and unworthy. Then after having been completely convinced that they are majorly full of sin, Christianity then hands out the antidote in the form of Jesus and if the person doesn't believe in Jesus they will burn in hell forever because they are truly wicked.

There is no free choice in the matter. A free choice would be to accept Jesus or not accept Jesus without retribution but there are consequences attached to the choice. When consequences are attached to a choice it becomes coercion and that is extortion.
I've often pondered the nature of the choice we have and it never makes sense to me.

> “Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” (Thomas Jefferson) Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gwaithmir's post
05-04-2017, 07:02 PM
RE: Why I Believe
Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear that religion is causing you so much grief but very glad to hear that you are getting professional help. I'm not a professional but it seems as if your underlying conditions and religion feed back upon one another in some very unhealthy ways.

(05-04-2017 05:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I have a real phobia about going to hell. I feel trapped and as I see it, there are only two ways out for me.

1. To be convinced there is no hell (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)

2. To, not believe. All I will say is that I have major doubts. I'm having a real crisis of faith.

I'm not sure it will alleviate your fears, but perhaps you should consider another option.

Quote:I can relate to Pascal’s Wager.

I do love to hate The Wager. Let's turn it on it's head.

Either Hell exists or it does not.

That's so axiomatic that even I can't screw it up.

If Hell does not exist then it's a moot point. You have nothing to worry about. I don't know what happens after death but clearly neither does anybody else. Reincarnation sounds like fun. I'd like to come back as a turtle. Turtles look like the have it All Figured Out.

If Hell does exist then there are a few things that we know though some of these aren't immediately obvious. I'm sorry but most of this will not help your fears until the final bit at the end:

- Hell isn't a Lake of Fire. That's a myth concocted by somebody with a feeble imagination who saw a volcano. You could get used to being burned alive. After the first few millennia it would likely get dull. Eventually damned souls would start meeting up to discuss who had the more fashionable flames this season. The visions that you get are based on the religion that you were raised in and should be discarded for the cultural rubbish that the are.

Hell is worse. Hell is unending and unspeakable torment. Unspeakable in the most literal sense. Our species, which began with breaking knees and yanking out fingernails and worked its way up through bamboo shoots, waterboarding and electricity to the pinnacle of modern "civilization", has no word in any of its languages that even begins to describe the horrors of Hell. Our mortal minds cannot encompass it.

- God exists. I'll be damned. Mind you this "God" is not the Christian God. This "God" does not love you. Most likely It is not capable. The "God" that made Hell is a monstrosity. Imagine Donald Trump's raging ego feeding off of Kim Jong-Un's manifest insecurities with Joseph Stalin's whacky sense of humour. Now realize that THAT would run shrieking from this "Deity" which, once again, our mortal minds cannot begin to comprehend the horror of. The closest term that I know of is Omnimalevolent. To put it in terms that you might understand better, "God so hated the world that He slew His one and only Son, that whoever does not believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal torment."

- Heaven is paradise according to the most horrifying Being ever to stain reality with Its existence. Heaven is an Eternity in the immediate presence of an omnimalevolent "Deity". Heaven is God's Lair. The single biggest difference between Heaven and Hell is that in Heaven you get to live with your Tormentor while forced to sing His praises. The irony is that if you really think about Hell, and the sort of Deity that would create such a torment, and the sort of "paradise" that It might create then you arrive at the inescapable conclusion that Hell is actually the preferable destination.

OK, like I said, a lot of that won't have helped your fears. Now for the useful bit:

Find whatever or whoever it is in this world that you find most amazing and while staring upon its beauty ask yourself, "Could this wonder have been forged by the sort of Abomination that could create Hell?" No? You already know that Hell does not exist. Congratulations on winning The Wager.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Paleophyte's post
05-04-2017, 08:52 PM
RE: Why I Believe
What can reduce fear ?

Courage

The cowardly Lion in the Wizard of Oz realized that courage was the ability to take action in the face of fear.

This is something I've tried to instill in myself and my son.

"Though we may be afraid, we must never let fear stop us. Acknowledge the fear and understand that it is a feeling. Then you move. You keep doing what you have to do. Let nothing stop you."

I have a fear of snakes. I was raised in the country and as a child, i saw a large snake and have been afraid of them ever since.

In a house I lived in a few years ago, I was crawling under the house to turn off the water main. Old house, dirt basement.

While under the house near the value, I saw a 4 ft long shedded snake skin. It looked fairly fresh.

Fear wanted me to get the fuck out of there as fast as possible, but I had to reach down to turn the valve off. Water was spraying from a broken pipe elsewhere in the house.

There was a snake size hole in the dirt right next to the valve. I kept moving. I did what I had to do. I was afraid, but I knew it was just a feeling.

The water got turned off and I scurried my ass out of that dirt basement.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Rahn127's post
05-04-2017, 10:34 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 05:40 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Fear is the key. Not sure if anyone expected that answer, but it's true. For the most part fear is the key. I mean, it's not just fear, I do have a belief it is true. But here's the situation:

I have major issues with Christianity, from slavery, brutality, misogynistic practices, the need for a human sacrifice, the threat of an eternal agonising afterlife for some, the need for any of this. But I am scared of being wrong. I have a real phobia about going to hell. I feel trapped and as I see it, there are only two ways out for me.

1. To be convinced there is no hell (not possible – as we cannot say either way for sure)

2. To, not believe. All I will say is that I have major doubts. I'm having a real crisis of faith.

I ask myself, if my thought processes were not inhibited by fear and anxiety, would I still believe? Well, having a Heavenly Father sounds great to me. Someone to love and care for you, and having the biggest and strongest Dad in the world is what every child inside us wants. Someone to pick you up every time you fall down, someone to tell you everything is going to be ok.

All that said, if I could push aside all concepts of Christianity and have a mind unfettered with Christian tradition and influences (all of them), would I still believe it was all true?

Truth is, I’m too anxious to even ask myself that, which in itself speaks volumes. I can relate to Pascal’s Wager.

I ask myself, why does an omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing) creator, feel the need to create a torture chamber, where the wicked are sent to spend an eternity in unspeakable, unthinkable agony? Why not just utterly annihilate them? Not enough punishment? Ok, but why does there need to be any punishment in the first place? Surely an omnipotent and omniscient creator could just show us the error of our ways, teach us so we know why we did the things we did, and then we can all live in peace?

I see no point in it, but here is my problem:

Even if I do not see any point in it at all – it doesn’t mean it is not true. Sure it doesn't mean it is true, but that's where I am right now.

Do I only believe out of a fear of punishment? It’s probably not the ‘only’ reason, but it is a major part of it. Truth be told, I am not in a position to really answer that question yet.

I very probably will ask questions concerning biblical verses and such, but I assure you it is not to force my beliefs on anyone. As I always say, I really have no axe to grind and certainly have no agenda I want to push on anyone.

The reason for my questions (and questions to subsequent answers I may receive) is to really test what I believe, and why I believe. If my questions stand up to scrutiny, if I cannot have my faith torn down, then I will remain a Christian. Conversely, if I end up not believing because my beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny, then I will seriously question what I believe, in fact, I may not have that option because regardless of what I want to believe, the truth is the truth.

Thanks all


How much do you fear Tartarus? How much do you fear Sheol? How much do you fear having molten metal being poured into you by Allah for eternity?

When you stop to realize just how little you fear these other possibilities, and why you fear them so little, you should realize why your fear in the Christian hell is unfounded.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-04-2017, 10:54 PM
RE: Why I Believe
At the very least, SeaJay, trust that your god is good enough not to hurt you (or anyone else), and that hell is just a myth invented by humans to control other humans and pick their pockets.

I wish you all the best in overcoming the fear.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Astreja's post
05-04-2017, 10:55 PM
RE: Why I Believe
Another way of reducing fear, which has helped several people I've talked to in the past, is to be able to laugh at the subject matter. Screaming obscenities at God has proved therapeutic for some, once you see there is absolutely no pushback. My favourite line from someone this helped was, "Fuck the holy spirit with a big black cock!"

I highly recommend this video series. They go through the bible and have a great laugh about how silly it all is. It might make you feel differently about it all!




I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Robvalue's post
06-04-2017, 01:38 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 01:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  You might also ask yourself this question when it comes to a fear of dying or questions about an afterlife.

You are about to enter into a surgery room and be put under anesthesia. You are put under and now unconscious. The surgery is very tricky.
There are three options that could happen.

1. You could die.
2. You could end up living in a coma unconscious for the rest of your life and then die.
3. Surgery went well and you awaken 8 hours later.

While you are unconscious, how can you determine if you died in surgery or if you are in a coma ?
No way of knowing far as I can tell

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SeaJay's post
06-04-2017, 01:59 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 01:55 PM)mordant Wrote:  Your mind is simply latching onto a rationale, however, irrational, to explain / justify the strong feelings of shame and unworthiness that are your real problem.
Can add guilt to that as well. I've been told this, and need to look into this more.

Thank you for replying

Thank you all for replying!

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SeaJay's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: