Why I Believe
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21-04-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 11:07 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Rahn127 Wrote:A god did not enact any seatbelt law. No gods prevented any deaths from car accidents. If anything, protecting our lives from death would seem to go against any plan that a god has made for our lives.
According to the fairy tale I really like it is part of God's plan that men find solutions to problems and that men would progress. Resolving problems is necessary for men's progression. If God gave law about seat belts He would rob us from an opportunity to create seatbelts.

Men know they have physical bodies but men would never know they have spirit inside of physical bodies if God didn't reveal it. Men would never know how to save spirit from the destruction This is why God give laws that prevent spirit from the destruction/self-destruction. He doesn't give laws that would prevent physical bodies destructions. It is something we can do and have to do. When men look for ways how to protect their physical bodies men progress. God wouldn't take this opportunity from men.
Isn't it wonderful that we can progress by looking for solutions? Would we do this if we lived in perfect world where there are no problems?

Your god sounds utterly useless. We figure all the shit out and he gets credit because he revealed we have a spirit....that you conveniently can't prove at all.

Also, do you just completely ignore the bible, because god sure as hell did give laws about the physical body.
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21-04-2017, 11:21 AM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2017 11:27 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 11:07 AM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, I believe animals have spirit(intelligence). They obey natural laws. I believe that whatever the smallest elements that exist in this reality have spirit( intelligence). They obey natural laws. I believe that planets and stars have spirit(intelligence). They obey natural laws.
According to my favorite fairy tale EVERYTHING is created spiritually first or has spirit body first then it obtains physical body(tabernacle)
Men were spirits first long before they obtained physical bodies.

So you believe inanimate things have spirits? So anything that obeys natural laws has a spirit, so what happens to the spirit of a tree or a rock or a star after it ceases functioning?

(21-04-2017 11:07 AM)Alla Wrote:  No other animal from Earth can speak more than one language.
Only those who have spirits and physical bodies that are created in image of Gods can do all those things.

The bird that impersonates a MEERKAT to steal food: Drongo catches a quarter of its meals by imitating other creatures

This bird speaks meerkat, chimps are tool users. These dividing lines are not as clear cut as you are asserting.

Let's not forget these guys either:




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-04-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Robvalue Wrote:Is there something else? Even if there is, and it's pulling the strings and is independent from our bodies, it still clearly requires the brain as a medium.
If I screw with your brain in the right way, I can mess with your memories, emotions, or even your personality. This spirit-thing cannot bypass it. So it's only sensible to conclude that if I remove the brain entirely, any such spirit has no tools left with which to control "you".
Or we can think this way: let's say that spirit(male or female) has eyes, ears, brain, heart, legs, arms and other organs. Let's say that spirit can be independent from physical body. He or she can exist without physical body. He or she can see and hear things, or have feelings

Let's pretend that spirit is placed inside of physical mortal body that has brain damage, or has blind eyes or deaf ears. What happens then?
I will use analogy to show what I believe happens:
Let's say I have perfect vision. Let's say I was placed in a huge glass jar. This jar is made of green glass and surface has lots of imperfections. What happens if I look through this glass jar? Would I see the world the same way?
No. My ability of seeing the world will be different. It will be screwed up.
But does it mean that something wrong with my eyes? No. My eyes are still good. As soon as I am out of this glass jar I see things I couldn't see inside of it.

Spirit in imperfect mortal physical body doesn't see the world the way he or she sees it outside of this physical body.
The same with ability to think and to remember or to hear.
Nothing happens to brain of spirit in imperfect mortal physical body the same as nothing happens to my eyes in green glass jar. ALL MEMORIES are stored. As soon as spirit leaves imperfect physical mortal body spirit remembers perfectly everything what happened to him/her inside of imperfect(damaged) physical body.

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21-04-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: Why I Believe
ResidentEvilFan Wrote:Your god sounds utterly useless. We figure all the shit out and he gets credit because he revealed we have a spirit....that you conveniently can't prove at all.
No, according to my favorite fairy tale we get credit for every thing we create. We get credit for every problem we solve. This is why we get rewards(blessings). We don't get rewards for nothing.

ResidentEvilFan Wrote:Also, do you just completely ignore the bible, because god sure as hell did give laws about the physical body.
Yes, according to the Bible He did give laws about physical bodies. But if you noticed the Bible claims that God gave those instruction only to some people and NOT to ALL.
Only those who ask God questions and make covenants with Him receive instructions about physical bodies and about many other things like should I move to different state? should I accept this job?

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21-04-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 09:20 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(21-04-2017 08:53 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm going to rewind from the concept of hell and talk about what happens when we die.

What facts do we have? Our body stop functioning, and decomposes. That includes our brain.

What else is there? Scientifically, there is no evidence that there is anything else at all. It's all unsubstantiated woo. It never even gets defined, let alone evidenced.

If you think of the brain as a sea, then consciousness is like waves on that sea. The patterns we notice that emerge as a wave are like patterns in a brain that emerge as consciousness. What happens if you take the sea away? Can the waves "survive" on their own? Of course not. They were just an organisation of parts of the sea. So can consciousness survive without a brain? It similarly doesn't even seem to be coherent to think that it could. There is nothing to make patterns anymore.

Is there something else? Even if there is, and it's pulling the strings and is independent from our bodies, it still clearly requires the brain as a medium. If I screw with your brain in the right way, I can mess with your memories, emotions, or even your personality. This spirit-thing cannot bypass it. So it's only sensible to conclude that if I remove the brain entirely, any such spirit has no tools left with which to control "you".

Where are memories and knowledge stored? In the brain. In a functioning brain. Take that away, and no more memories. No more knowledge. The bleakness of these statements is probably what has caused many people through the ages to be so uncomfortable that they need to grant themselves some magical component which can survive death. But the evidence is overwhelming: if there's anything else to "us" further than our bodies, it makes no actual difference.

I wonder if someone that's convinced of dualism would consider consciousness separate with different animals?

What happens to a chimps consciousness after it dies? Chimp heaven? Chimp hell? Non existence?

What happens to a snake's consciousness after it dies?

How about a spider?

How about a worm?

Is there some point where you draw the line and simply say- that animal will cease to exist.

If so, why did you draw the line at that particular point? Because a worm may not be as intelligent as a human?

After a human dies, a worm's intelligence surpasses a dead human. Drinking Beverage

We're anthropomorphizing death, saying that humans are special and they are not subject to what other animals are subject to, simple termination of consciousness after life ends, no fairy tales needed.

Absolutely. At what point during the evolutionary process did all this magic shit start appearing?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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21-04-2017, 12:03 PM
RE: Why I Believe
TheInquisition Wrote:So you believe inanimate things have spirits? So anything that obeys natural laws has a spirit, so what happens to the spirit of a tree or a rock or a star after it ceases functioning?
The Author of my favorite fairy tale gave a hint: some are recycled after they become what they were before their creation, they become part of eternal un-organized spirit matter. Some receive new glory in new worlds.

TheInquisition Wrote:This bird speaks meerkat,
Birds can not use different language the way humans can. Humans are very special animals.


TheInquisition Wrote:chimps are tool users
OK, but humans are still special animals. No other animal progressed the way humans progressed in the last 200 years.
There is something special about this animals humans.

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21-04-2017, 12:06 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 12:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  
TheInquisition Wrote:So you believe inanimate things have spirits? So anything that obeys natural laws has a spirit, so what happens to the spirit of a tree or a rock or a star after it ceases functioning?
The Author of my favorite fairy tale gave a hint: some are recycled after they become what they were before their creation, they become part of eternal un-organized spirit matter. Some receive new glory in new worlds.

TheInquisition Wrote:This bird speaks meerkat,
Birds can not use different language the way humans can. Humans are very special animals.


TheInquisition Wrote:chimps are tool users
OK, but humans are still special animals. No other animal progressed the way humans progressed in the last 200 years.
There is something special about this animals humans.

Your fairy tale is at odds with the real world, but oh well, it wouldn't be a fairy tale if it were real.....

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-04-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: Why I Believe
This is the god thinking human:
[Image: Ego_zpse7llnugi.jpg]


This is the thinking human:
[Image: Eco_zpsxvu859cm.jpg]

No god is required for truthful thought.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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21-04-2017, 12:25 PM
RE: Why I Believe
What is required to tell a lie ?
You need only to speak.

What is required to tell the truth ?
You need evidence.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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21-04-2017, 02:26 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 12:25 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  ... What is required to tell a lie? ... You need only to speak ...

Or not. Silence is just as powerful a deceit, sometimes more so.
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