Why I Believe
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22-04-2017, 06:47 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(22-04-2017 05:20 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  We're naturally pattern seekers. So much so that we find patterns even when there aren't any. We also naturally try to reaffirm our beliefs.

So it sounds to me that you still believe prayers get answered somehow, and while you do believe this, your brain will find some pattern somewhere to reaffirm. There's no failure criteria, because you're eventually going to accept pretty much anything and assign meaning to it.

Prayer doesn't work, that's been scientifically demonstrated. Even if it did, it produces such a weird narrative. What's going on? God needs prompting to become aware of good ideas? God's plan is a load of shit and he needs people to point out the errors?

Clearly not all prayers are answered, unless you accept anything as an answer; in which case you may as well pray to an ant.

I'm not in any way trying to criticise you, I'm trying to aid rational thought Smile If I'm not helping, I'll be quiet Tongue
I agree with you, especially the pattern thinking machines that you touch upon. It's why we see faces in clouds and stuff. I can rationalise it eventually, and right now I'm ok with what happened above, but I'm still prone to bouts of fear when they do occur. Hopefully, as I fill my head with facts and reason, it will become less and less frequent.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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22-04-2017, 07:11 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Anyone can test prayer any time they like, as you did with the dice.

"Jesus, I want a 6."

Do you always get a 6 on the next roll? Clearly not. And the reason there is a failure here is because you have set a clear criteria. It's not "I want a 6 eventually" or "I want something good to happen... at some point...", it's giving a specific event and a specific time limit.

"Jesus, have someone deposit a million pounds in my bank account by the end of the day."

Will that happen? No. Imagine the state of the economy if it did.

Prayer only "works" when we don't have failure criteria. Anything that falls apart under proper testing was never real to begin with. A god that forever does an impression of something that doesn't exist may as well not. Apologetics is a matter of making excuses for why God appears to be doing nothing.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-04-2017, 07:50 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(22-04-2017 01:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  It's happened again Sad

I was watching a Youtube video on testing prayer. It mentioned how the bible was clear that if you prayer in Jesus' name, what you pray for will come to pass. So I tried the test. I prayed three times.

I took five 6 sided dice (as that video suggested) and first prayed that when I rolled the dice, all the dice would come up a 6. They didn’t.

Then I prayed a second time, this time for four of the d6s to come up a 6. They didn’t.

I then prayed a third time asking for three of the d6s to come up a 6. They didn’t.

About a minute or two later I glanced at the T.V and on the sports news channel, there was a clip showing Kenny Miller celebrated a goal with another player and Miller pointed to the sky with one hand. Sucks

I know folk will say "Oh that's convenient - when a specific situation was prayed for, nothing happens, but then a coincidence happens and that's your evidence!?"

But I feel as if God is teaching me a lesson here and it's as if He is saying "You know not to test me, but, seeing as you prayed...remember Kenny Miller? There's your answer."

Something like that. Really sucks

[Image: gwynnie_zpsuppj84l6.jpg]

#sigh
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22-04-2017, 01:05 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2017 02:08 PM by SeaJay.)
RE: Why I Believe
I've just spent seven and a half hours going through the following replies to the Infidels.org website and the contradictions they say they've come across:

Here are the replies to the contradictions I'm working through http://www.genesispark.com/essays/contra...s/answered

I am about 75% through, having checked the text against this interlinear scripture analyser: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm

I've been keeping a tally as to whether or not I believe the contradictions remain 'Unresolved' if I am 'Not Sure' or if I believe they have been 'Resolved'.

So far the count is:

UnR 12
NoS 26
Res 178

I'm pretty sure I have made the correct decisions, and I've erred on the side of the bible, i.e. I've given the person replying to the contradictions the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not a contradiction should be classed as 'UnR', 'NoS', or 'Res'. I did this because I need to be as sure as I can if there are issues with the bible text. Knowing I have come across issues, and that I've come across issues even though I erred on the side of the bible, tells me the bible definitely does, have issues. If that makes sense.

Just thought I'd let you know what I've been doing.

This brings up the question, should a God-breathed book have any errors? I'm really not sure. One one hand, no. Though authors were inspired to write, they were still writing with bias, tired eyes, and the limits of the human mind. On the other hand, yes. God should have the power to make sure there were no errors at all.

I found this

2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Not sure if the above demands a perfect book though. There may be other verses that are clearer but I haven't looked too closely yet.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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22-04-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(22-04-2017 01:05 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  I've just spent seven and a half hours going through the following replies to the Infidels.org website and the contradictions they say they've come across:

Here are the replies to the contradictions I'm working through http://www.genesispark.com/essays/contra...s/answered

I am about 75% through, having checked the text against this interlinear scripture analyser: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm

I've been keeping a tally as to whether or not I believe the contradictions remain 'Unresolved' if I am 'Not Sure' or if I believe they have been 'Resolved'.

So far the count is:

UnR 12
NoS 26
Res 178

I'm pretty sure I have made the correct decisions, and if I've erred on the side of the bible, i.e. I've given the person replying to the contradictions the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not a contradiction should be classed as 'UnR', 'NoS', or 'Res'. I did this because I need to be as sure as I can if there are issues with the bible text. Knowing I have come across issues, and that I've come across issues even though I erred on the side of the bible, tells me the bible definitely does, have issues. If that makes sense.

Just thought I'd let you know what I've been doing.

This brings up the question, should a God-breathed book have any errors? I'm really not sure. One one hand, no. Though authors were inspired to write, they were still writing with bias, tired eyes, and the limits of the human mind. On the other hand, yes. God should have the power to make sure there were no errors at all.

I found this

2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Not sure if the above demands a perfect book though. There may be other verses that are clearer but I haven't looked too closely yet.

I would be highly suspect of a site that thinks dinosaurs existed at the same time as man. They're not exactly adhering to scientific facts there.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-04-2017, 01:38 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(22-04-2017 01:32 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I would be highly suspect of a site that thinks dinosaurs existed at the same time as man. They're not exactly adhering to scientific facts there.

Gasp What?!

Omg. Now I'm going to have to change every citation in this paper I'm writing about human evolution! Frusty
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22-04-2017, 02:13 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(22-04-2017 01:05 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  ...
Not sure if the above demands a perfect book though.
...

Silly Billy.

Of course there is a god-breathed perfect book.

It is the last and final word.

It is written.

[Image: 3a4b1ec5849497c6de620ae85ba06450.jpg]

All this time you've been looking in the wrong place.

Not your fault you were born in the wrong country though.

Drinking Beverage

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22-04-2017, 02:19 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(22-04-2017 01:32 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-04-2017 01:05 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  I've just spent seven and a half hours going through the following replies to the Infidels.org website and the contradictions they say they've come across:

Here are the replies to the contradictions I'm working through http://www.genesispark.com/essays/contra...s/answered

I am about 75% through, having checked the text against this interlinear scripture analyser: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter..._Index.htm

I've been keeping a tally as to whether or not I believe the contradictions remain 'Unresolved' if I am 'Not Sure' or if I believe they have been 'Resolved'.

So far the count is:

UnR 12
NoS 26
Res 178

I'm pretty sure I have made the correct decisions, and if I've erred on the side of the bible, i.e. I've given the person replying to the contradictions the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not a contradiction should be classed as 'UnR', 'NoS', or 'Res'. I did this because I need to be as sure as I can if there are issues with the bible text. Knowing I have come across issues, and that I've come across issues even though I erred on the side of the bible, tells me the bible definitely does, have issues. If that makes sense.

Just thought I'd let you know what I've been doing.

This brings up the question, should a God-breathed book have any errors? I'm really not sure. One one hand, no. Though authors were inspired to write, they were still writing with bias, tired eyes, and the limits of the human mind. On the other hand, yes. God should have the power to make sure there were no errors at all.

I found this

2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Not sure if the above demands a perfect book though. There may be other verses that are clearer but I haven't looked too closely yet.

I would be highly suspect of a site that thinks dinosaurs existed at the same time as man. They're not exactly adhering to scientific facts there.
Facepalm Ooof! Ok I totally missed that Big Grin

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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22-04-2017, 02:24 PM
RE: Why I Believe
There's plenty of man-made books with no contradictions in. That doesn't make them special, it just means they've been edited properly.

God shouldn't need a book, or a bunch of desert nomads writing down his musings. Surely he can do better. If he wants to communicate and he still exists, it would be the worst choice possible to continue to rely on some brain fart he had 2000 years ago which has been through the Chinese-whisper mill ever since.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-04-2017, 02:31 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(22-04-2017 02:24 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  There's plenty of man-made books with no contradictions in. That doesn't make them special, it just means they've been edited properly.

God shouldn't need a book, or a bunch of desert nomads writing down his musings. Surely he can do better. If he wants to communicate and he still exists, it would be the worst choice possible to continue to rely on some brain fart he had 2000 years ago which has been through the Chinese-whisper mill ever since.
I can be swayed either way, but if I had to choose, I'd say I'd expect a divinely authored book to be error free.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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