Why I Believe
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23-04-2017, 03:04 PM
RE: Why I Believe
Just as earlier I asked whether an infallible bible would give greater weight to your considerations, likewise I think it important to ask whether a Jesus existed should give weight to your considerations. And before you could answer that you have to define the Jesus you're looking for and why that version would matter. Some charismatic zealot attracting a following 2000 years ago is meaningless since that phenomenon has been a continuous feature of mankind right to present. That such a personality might have been named Jesus adds nothing to it banal commonness.

So then perhaps you're looking for a real figure that's closer to the mythical Jesus, able to manifest miracles and was an authentic agent of a god. But proof of that kind of thing is impossible; you could never know. It seems to me that the only provable thing you could find is the banal common Jesus, a personality indistinguishable from the millions that have fit that model in the years since.

How would finding that an historical figure like that be able to give any weight to your considerations, since nothing about such a figure would be more remarkable than the others?

Finally, I personally find no value whatsoever in venerating personality. It puts the focus on an irrelevance. Who espoused worthy insights is of no consequence; it's the insights that count. Looking to personality instead of idea assures embracing ideas not worth considering, since no personality can avoid making mistaken insights - to avoid that you'd have to know everything it is possible to know.

I'd be more interested in the insights the Jesus fellow came up with; were they any good? Forget the personality and cultivate the insights; they're what'll help you navigate life.
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23-04-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(23-04-2017 02:02 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Thanks all for the links and advice, much appreciated.

Man those videos are long, and there's three of them! Think I'll watch them and then decided whether or not to buy the Carrier book

I dont think these will help you decide to read OHJ, but they are fascinating videos. Ehrman is not a mythicist and actually really dislikes Carrier.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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24-04-2017, 01:33 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(23-04-2017 03:04 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  I'd be more interested in the insights the Jesus fellow came up with; were they any good? Forget the personality and cultivate the insights; they're what'll help you navigate life.
Could you give an example?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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24-04-2017, 01:34 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(23-04-2017 04:25 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(23-04-2017 02:02 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Thanks all for the links and advice, much appreciated.

Man those videos are long, and there's three of them! Think I'll watch them and then decided whether or not to buy the Carrier book

I dont think these will help you decide to read OHJ, but they are fascinating videos. Ehrman is not a mythicist and actually really dislikes Carrier.
Thanks for the advice

Do we know why Ehrman and Carrier dislike each other, it can't be down to differing lines of reasoning surely.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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24-04-2017, 02:30 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 01:34 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(23-04-2017 04:25 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I dont think these will help you decide to read OHJ, but they are fascinating videos. Ehrman is not a mythicist and actually really dislikes Carrier.
Thanks for the advice

Do we know why Ehrman and Carrier dislike each other, it can't be down to differing lines of reasoning surely.

Carrier wrote a dismissive rebuttal of one of his books, but he did balance it by saying his other work was excellent, Ehrman is a bit of a prima donna apparently but that could be just hearsay.
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24-04-2017, 03:26 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Edit: double post error.

"I don't do magic, Morty, I do science. One takes brains, the other takes dark eye liner" - Rick
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24-04-2017, 03:28 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(21-04-2017 11:07 AM)Alla Wrote:  
OakTree500 Wrote:That's all religion is really, humans glorifying the idea that Humans are "above" animals. That we are special in some random way.
Actually, we are very special/unique animals.
No other animal from Earth can create computer and books. No other animal from Earth can explore other planets and get to the Moon. No other animal from Earth can create and play musical instruments. No other animal from Earth can speak more than one language.
Only those who have spirits and physical bodies that are created in image of Gods can do all those things.

Yes we are different but we're not special.

Of course we're more advanced that say, dogs for example, but my point is that religion take it to another level. What they say is, "Well, we're clearly not like the rest of these mindless animals, so the answer must be because of a god that created us in his/her image", when the bottom line is: Human beings ARE animals as well, [we're members of the 'Great Ape' family], so why would human being have souls and everything else that's alive on the planet be any different? So either all animals have souls, or none of us do. You work it out.

Another one of those #ItDoesntMakeSense things, brought to you by religion.

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24-04-2017, 07:02 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Everything that happens in the New Testament, including the resurrection, is a collection of relatively minor claims compared to the Old Testament. That is a magic-fueled adventure which any non-fundamentalist doesn't try to take literally at all. Apologetics is so often aimed at the relatively small NT, rather than the bulk of the bible. It seems like the OT is something of an embarrassment, especially as the dubiously promoted version of Jesus as God is nothing like Yahweh.

Christians look at a story in the OT and say, "Well, that obviously didn't happen. So it must be a metaphor for such and such". By the same reasoning, the resurrection would also be a metaphor because that obviously didn't happen either. But it's not quite as outlandish as the stuff in the OT, so it seems to bridge the gap between believable and unbelievable, for Christians. Of course, for sceptics, it's no such thing. It's a textual record of an event not known to even be possible, and as such the claim should be dismissed.

Even if Jesus did rise from the dead, that doesn't tell us how; nor does it tell us that he is God, or even the son of God, or that there really is any sort of afterlife. It would just be a very unusual occurrence which we can't investigate further.

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24-04-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Why I Believe
Side note: speaking of the resurrection, my daughter asked me about this today. She's 7 and says she believes in god/Jesus etc, she doesn't attend church but goes to a kids club thing, held by the church that my mum volunteers for, so that'll be where she gets any information about Christianity from.

She asked me, "when you die, can you come back?", I said "nope". She furthered the conversation with "...but Jesus did it", to which I replied "...yes but that's a story, and anything can happen in stories".

It led to a conversation about how I don't believe in any of that stuff, but it's totally fine if she does. I think somewhere I've crushed her idea's about what to believe in. Although she did say "well If I believe in god, and you don't believe in anything...is that like if you're from a different country or something?" haha.

Hopefully it's at least sparked her interest in broadening her views when she's older.

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24-04-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: Why I Believe
That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. You're not telling her what to believe. You're encouraging her to think and to question.

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