Why I Believe
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24-04-2017, 07:36 AM
RE: Why I Believe
I have spoken to her briefly about it before, and also mentioned that there are other religions as well, not just this snippet of Christianity that she knows of, so hopefully she'll continue to ask questions and stuff.

I have nothing against her believing in whatever, I just think you should make an informed decision about it. Research all religions if possible, and if you think one of them is for you, go for it. If not, then no worries.

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24-04-2017, 08:31 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 07:22 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  She asked me, "when you die, can you come back?", I said "nope". She furthered the conversation with "...but Jesus did it", to which I replied "...yes but that's a story, and anything can happen in stories"...

Perfect response! Thumbsup

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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24-04-2017, 08:41 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 07:02 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Everything that happens in the New Testament, including the resurrection, is a collection of relatively minor claims compared to the Old Testament. That is a magic-fueled adventure which any non-fundamentalist doesn't try to take literally at all. Apologetics is so often aimed at the relatively small NT, rather than the bulk of the bible. It seems like the OT is something of an embarrassment, especially as the dubiously promoted version of Jesus as God is nothing like Yahweh.

Considering that the OT is full of obvious mythology, and the whole Bible is said to be written by God himself, it's a small step to say the NT is mythology too -- and that that is just God's preferred style of expression. Of course no one says that for some reason.

I've also wondered why so few people who believe in God also believe that only God can be immortal. That would make sense to me. I think it shows how self-interested people are about what they will believe.
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24-04-2017, 08:51 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 01:33 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(23-04-2017 03:04 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  I'd be more interested in the insights the Jesus fellow came up with; were they any good? Forget the personality and cultivate the insights; they're what'll help you navigate life.
Could you give an example?

Matthew 5-7 is pretty good.

#sigh
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24-04-2017, 10:20 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 02:30 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(24-04-2017 01:34 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Thanks for the advice

Do we know why Ehrman and Carrier dislike each other, it can't be down to differing lines of reasoning surely.

Carrier wrote a dismissive rebuttal of one of his books, but he did balance it by saying his other work was excellent, Ehrman is a bit of a prima donna apparently but that could be just hearsay.

Also, according to a radio interview I heard with Ehrman, Carrier made a few ad homs against him (he didn't say anything specific). I sort of think that Ehrman took Carrier's critique personally but can't stand being contradicted. It was like in the Robert Price debate, Ehrman was laughing at Price instead of asking him why he thought Paul didn't write any of the epistles. That debate to me sort of showed that Ehrman is still a victim of motivated reasoning. Not saying that I accept the mythicist position, but to not even ask Price why he thinks the way he does was a bit off putting for me.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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24-04-2017, 10:50 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 10:20 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(24-04-2017 02:30 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Carrier wrote a dismissive rebuttal of one of his books, but he did balance it by saying his other work was excellent, Ehrman is a bit of a prima donna apparently but that could be just hearsay.

Also, according to a radio interview I heard with Ehrman, Carrier made a few ad homs against him (he didn't say anything specific). I sort of think that Ehrman took Carrier's critique personally but can't stand being contradicted. It was like in the Robert Price debate, Ehrman was laughing at Price instead of asking him why he thought Paul didn't write any of the epistles. That debate to me sort of showed that Ehrman is still a victim of motivated reasoning. Not saying that I accept the mythicist position, but to not even ask Price why he thinks the way he does was a bit off putting for me.

Ehrmans too high and mighty to deign to appear on the TTA podcast probably the most popular atheist podcast available, makes you wonder what is going on in his mind. I'm definitely a mythicist, to my mind there is such paucity of evidence for a historical Jesus, I'm surprised so many scholars accept it as likely.
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24-04-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 10:50 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(24-04-2017 10:20 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Also, according to a radio interview I heard with Ehrman, Carrier made a few ad homs against him (he didn't say anything specific). I sort of think that Ehrman took Carrier's critique personally but can't stand being contradicted. It was like in the Robert Price debate, Ehrman was laughing at Price instead of asking him why he thought Paul didn't write any of the epistles. That debate to me sort of showed that Ehrman is still a victim of motivated reasoning. Not saying that I accept the mythicist position, but to not even ask Price why he thinks the way he does was a bit off putting for me.

Ehrmans too high and mighty to deign to appear on the TTA podcast probably the most popular atheist podcast available, makes you wonder what is going on in his mind. I'm definitely a mythicist, to my mind there is such paucity of evidence for a historical Jesus, I'm surprised so many scholars accept it as likely.

I really don't care either way myself. I think Carrier makes a very compelling case however. I also like how he has answered the question on why more haven't been skeptical and his explanation was that many need a literal Jesus to keep their jobs. That is a very good motive to not question the historicity.

I wish he would appear on TTA. Seth isn't exactly a mythicist and he does a good and fair interview with those he disagrees with. I am not sure why Ehrman declines considering all of the other things he does.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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24-04-2017, 02:54 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(05-04-2017 05:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I should probably add that I am in therapy and have been since 2010 due to my fears of eternal punishment. I have been diagnosed with Complex PTSD (due to an emotionally abusive childhood), Borderline Personality Disorder, Severe Anxiety (social focused) just missed out on a full diagnosis of o.c.d (so I have it, but it is not as severe as most people with o.c.d), and intrusive thoughts.

I'm ok though, I am stable, I'm not about to go off the deep end or anything, it's under control so please don't feel the need to use 'kid gloves' with me. Not sure why I supply this information but I think it might be important somehow. It may shed light on certain situations or it may not. I think it explains why I think the way I do, why I cannot tolerate uncertainty, why I am like a dog with a bone when I pursue answers to questions. Either way it's out there now.

I do sympathise with your problems... However, I read your original post and all I can say is that I have no idea what on earth you are talking about.

I am not a Christian although I was baptised in a Methodist Church and went to Sunday school until I was 11 or so. Nor do I believe in God and I never did, even as a child. Call me stupid but I couldn't figure out the concept of an invisible person.

You say that you have problems with the "brutality" etc. in Christianity??? I have no recollection of reading anywhere in the NT that Jesus advocated brutality, slavery or human sacrifice. I thought he said things like "love your enemies", "do unto others" etc.

I think you should sit down and read Matthew again, particularly the bit called the Sermon on the Mount and all the bits about turning the other cheek. I'm sorry but I think you have mistaken "Christianity" for what is preached by whackjob American bible thumpers, which is merely the rantings of unstable, violent sociopaths.
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24-04-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 02:54 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(05-04-2017 05:48 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I should probably add that I am in therapy and have been since 2010 due to my fears of eternal punishment. I have been diagnosed with Complex PTSD (due to an emotionally abusive childhood), Borderline Personality Disorder, Severe Anxiety (social focused) just missed out on a full diagnosis of o.c.d (so I have it, but it is not as severe as most people with o.c.d), and intrusive thoughts.

I'm ok though, I am stable, I'm not about to go off the deep end or anything, it's under control so please don't feel the need to use 'kid gloves' with me. Not sure why I supply this information but I think it might be important somehow. It may shed light on certain situations or it may not. I think it explains why I think the way I do, why I cannot tolerate uncertainty, why I am like a dog with a bone when I pursue answers to questions. Either way it's out there now.

I do sympathise with your problems... However, I read your original post and all I can say is that I have no idea what on earth you are talking about.

I am not a Christian although I was baptised in a Methodist Church and went to Sunday school until I was 11 or so. Nor do I believe in God and I never did, even as a child. Call me stupid but I couldn't figure out the concept of an invisible person.

You say that you have problems with the "brutality" etc. in Christianity??? I have no recollection of reading anywhere in the NT that Jesus advocated brutality, slavery or human sacrifice. I thought he said things like "love your enemies", "do unto others" etc.

I think you should sit down and read Matthew again, particularly the bit called the Sermon on the Mount and all the bits about turning the other cheek. I'm sorry but I think you have mistaken "Christianity" for what is preached by whackjob American bible thumpers, which is merely the rantings of unstable, violent sociopaths.
I've read the bible twice and studied it for years so I am aware of what it says

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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24-04-2017, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2017 03:28 PM by Vera.)
RE: Why I Believe
(24-04-2017 02:54 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  You say that you have problems with the "brutality" etc. in Christianity??? I have no recollection of reading anywhere in the NT that Jesus advocated brutality, slavery or human sacrifice.

Really now? Allow me to refresh your obviously *rather* selective recollections.

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. – Jesus (Matthew 10:34-38)

Luke 19:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war”, “His eyes were as a flame of fire”, clothed in a vesture dipped in blood“, and “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

And then there's the whole figgy tantrum. What a peaceful, loving guy, indeed. Dodgy

Good thing he most probably never existed.

Even better thing - in a couple of centuries his name will join the rest of the (arguably less vile and hurtful to humankind) mythologies of the past. Can't wait.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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