Why I Believe
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27-04-2017, 12:54 AM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2017 01:22 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why I Believe
I still think your logical beliefs are at odds with your emotional ones. The "faith" you talk of is your emotions making you "feel" it's true. You wouldn't ever talk of having faith about something you didn't feel was true.

This is just my take. Feel free to tell me it's bollocks!

I don't think it's possible to choose to believe anything. It's possible to say you believe it, of course. But you either believe it or you don't. If you're not sure, you don't believe it. You may be conflicted because your logic and emotions pull you in different ways, of course. But one of them may win: a person whose emotional belief it so strong is drowns out their logic does believe. They can't shake it, even if they could write down exactly why they shouldn't believe it. Once they manage to get the logic to challenge the emotion enough to remove its hold and add sufficient doubt, they no longer believe.

Not believing isn't always the same as believing something is false. There is an intermediate stage.

There is a big jar of sweets on the shelf.

I don't believe there are an even number of sweets. I also don't believe there isn't. I have no belief either way.

I don't believe there are a hundred billion sweets in the jar. This time I do believe there isn't, as well.

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27-04-2017, 01:19 AM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2017 01:29 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why I Believe
The point I'm trying to make is that there is another state between believing something is true and believing it is false. It is the default state of not being convinced either way. It's fine to move to this default state without having to also move to the stronger state of believing something is false. Clearly it's not necessary to believe the jar of sweets has an odd number in it, in order to not believe it has an even number.

It is the idea of "religious faith" that tries to stop people moving to this default position. It's the ingrained idea that you must cling to these beliefs, regardless of what evidence there may or may not be, and even ignoring what the rational part of your brain is telling you. Ideas that are true don't need such emotional manipulation.

Of course, you can hope something is true. But hope isn't belief. This is often confused by theists, I think.

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27-04-2017, 02:34 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(06-04-2017 03:48 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  ...



@Rob,

I have doubts about one of the negative claims in this video.

Please clarify "hardly"... is that in relation to frequency or pressure?

Thanks.

Tongue

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27-04-2017, 02:53 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(26-04-2017 11:27 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Another issue that causes issues is how the bible mentions believers will fall away in the last days. I can't shake the feeling that if I did become an atheist, then it sort of confirms what the bible says would happen.

To stretch the argument to beyond screaming point, it's as if my falling away only serves to add to the legitimacy of the bible records. I'm not saying I fully believe this, but it is something I think about.

All christians have thought humans were in the "last days" since the supposed figure of jesus was still alive.... just wanna point that out.... 2,000 years of "last days" is kind of a long time to still be goin on about this shit. When do we get to call bullshit and pull the plug on this asinine claim "the last days"

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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27-04-2017, 03:01 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 12:54 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I still think your logical beliefs are at odds with your emotional ones. The "faith" you talk of is your emotions making you "feel" it's true. You wouldn't ever talk of having faith about something you didn't feel was true.

This is just my take. Feel free to tell me it's bollocks!

I don't think it's possible to choose to believe anything. It's possible to say you believe it, of course. But you either believe it or you don't. If you're not sure, you don't believe it. You may be conflicted because your logic and emotions pull you in different ways, of course. But one of them may win: a person whose emotional belief it so strong is drowns out their logic does believe. They can't shake it, even if they could write down exactly why they shouldn't believe it. Once they manage to get the logic to challenge the emotion enough to remove its hold and add sufficient doubt, they no longer believe.

Not believing isn't always the same as believing something is false. There is an intermediate stage.

There is a big jar of sweets on the shelf.

I don't believe there are an even number of sweets. I also don't believe there isn't. I have no belief either way.

I don't believe there are a hundred billion sweets in the jar. This time I do believe there isn't, as well.
I understand what you're saying and I agree with it. It is the emotional side that keeps me clinging and sometimes overrules the logical side of me

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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27-04-2017, 04:06 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 03:01 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 12:54 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I still think your logical beliefs are at odds with your emotional ones. The "faith" you talk of is your emotions making you "feel" it's true. You wouldn't ever talk of having faith about something you didn't feel was true.

This is just my take. Feel free to tell me it's bollocks!

I don't think it's possible to choose to believe anything. It's possible to say you believe it, of course. But you either believe it or you don't. If you're not sure, you don't believe it. You may be conflicted because your logic and emotions pull you in different ways, of course. But one of them may win: a person whose emotional belief it so strong is drowns out their logic does believe. They can't shake it, even if they could write down exactly why they shouldn't believe it. Once they manage to get the logic to challenge the emotion enough to remove its hold and add sufficient doubt, they no longer believe.

Not believing isn't always the same as believing something is false. There is an intermediate stage.

There is a big jar of sweets on the shelf.

I don't believe there are an even number of sweets. I also don't believe there isn't. I have no belief either way.

I don't believe there are a hundred billion sweets in the jar. This time I do believe there isn't, as well.
I understand what you're saying and I agree with it. It is the emotional side that keeps me clinging and sometimes overrules the logical side of me

> That's why I recommended earlier that you make inquiries to see whether or not there are any atheist groups in your area. What you need is confidence, and that will come from personally meeting and interacting with fellow atheists in a variety social settings.
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27-04-2017, 04:10 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 04:06 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 03:01 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I understand what you're saying and I agree with it. It is the emotional side that keeps me clinging and sometimes overrules the logical side of me

> That's why I recommended earlier that you make inquiries to see whether or not there are any atheist groups in your area. What you need is confidence, and that will come from personally meeting and interacting with fellow atheists in a variety social settings.
That's not a bad idea. I don't think there are any, but it's a good idea nevertheless, and I'll check

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27-04-2017, 04:18 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 04:10 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 04:06 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > That's why I recommended earlier that you make inquiries to see whether or not there are any atheist groups in your area. What you need is confidence, and that will come from personally meeting and interacting with fellow atheists in a variety social settings.
That's not a bad idea. I don't think there are any, but it's a good idea nevertheless, and I'll check

> Here's a good place to start: https://www.atheists.org/activism/affiliates/
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27-04-2017, 04:20 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 04:18 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 04:10 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  That's not a bad idea. I don't think there are any, but it's a good idea nevertheless, and I'll check

> Here's a good place to start: https://www.atheists.org/activism/affiliates/
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I'm in the UK, but thanks for the link anyway

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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27-04-2017, 08:20 AM
RE: Why I Believe
If hell is not real then hell is not real

If hell is real then I wouldn't want to worship its creator (despite all the anxiety and depression hell has lumped on me)

The bible tells me I am loved, and that I only have to believe. It also tells me if I do not believe, I will burn forever. That's not love, that's emotional abuse

"I love you and want you to love me back. But if you don't I'll throw battery acid in your face."

Sorry. Does not compute.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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