Why I Believe
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27-04-2017, 10:29 AM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2017 10:35 AM by kim.)
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 09:58 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 12:54 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  You wouldn't ever talk of having faith about something you didn't feel was true.

Why not? If it serves a practical purpose and the cost/benefit analysis shows low risk/high return it wouldn't be rational not to. It's not cognitive dissonance if you know what you're doing. I'm not saying you should try this at home. Smile

Yes of course, I quite often make reference to different so called "religious" or "holy" writings - mainly to make a point. I've made a very personal, in-depth study of poetry and literature ... I am free to cherry-pick with the best of charlatans. Wink

Others may not be so free.
You said yourself ... ...if you know what you are doing. That is key. Someone insecure of the self, deprived of childhood's freedoms, one whose mind has suffered abuse inflicted by seemingly harmless notions ... further use can become a trap.

Is the ouroboros a symbol of suffering or contentment? Or is that even a valid point to it's existence?

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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27-04-2017, 10:48 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Can I simply decide not to believe?

No. It isn't a choice. Belief is the state of being convinced of something. Now the reasons may be good or bad, but the point is you are convinced. Personally, I think that religious people have become convinced their god(s) are real based on little to no reason. And as part of their indoctrination, must be continuously reinforced of the reasons. One of the reasons for church is so that the nonsense is constantly being reimplanted. Ever hear the Xenu story if scientology? If you have, you know how felt when you first heard it. That is pretty much how a thinking adult who has never heard of Jesus thinks of that story. Your orthodoxy is ridiculous to someone who it is completely foreign to.

(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I do not know what I believe. I didn't even think that was possible, but it's the truth. I could say to myself "Ok, I can't deny it any longer, I am an atheist." Not sure I'd believe that though.


(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Is it possible to say "I don't believe in the resurrection but I have faith in the resurrection"? That's how it is. I don't literally believe it, but I have faith it occurred.

That's why I enquired about faith and belief.

I get what you're trying to say but it is silly. It either occurred or it didn't. To what part of that does faith add? Faith is the excuse people give when they have no good reason to believe something. Otherwise, you'd produce your reasons. The fact that god desperately wants a relationship with everyone of us but just can't sem to do even the most simplistic things for his followers. Have you ever wondered why god made a world where the best process we have come up with to discern fact from ficrion routinely demonstrates he is nonexistant? Why is faith so important to the thing that can do anything except get over a minor transgresion that was his fault?

(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  To all ex-Christians out there, how did it all pan out for you, when did you know you no longer believed, and how did you get over the fear of hell?

It took time and patience for me. Hell was the last thing to go and when it was gone, it was a great feeling that I was no longer afraid.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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27-04-2017, 10:50 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Can I simply decide not to believe?

No. It isn't a choice. Belief is the state of being convinced of something. Now the reasons may be good or bad, but the point is you are convinced. Personally, I think that religious people have become convinced their god(s) are real based on little to no reason. And as part of their indoctrination, must be continuously reinforced of the reasons. One of the reasons for church is so that the nonsense is constantly being reimplanted. Ever hear the Xenu story if scientology? If you have, you know how felt when you first heard it. That is pretty much how a thinking adult who has never heard of Jesus thinks of that story. Your orthodoxy is ridiculous to someone who it is completely foreign to.

(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I do not know what I believe. I didn't even think that was possible, but it's the truth. I could say to myself "Ok, I can't deny it any longer, I am an atheist." Not sure I'd believe that though.

Then don't. No one will bash you for being honest. (Well, a few might)

(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  Is it possible to say "I don't believe in the resurrection but I have faith in the resurrection"? That's how it is. I don't literally believe it, but I have faith it occurred.

That's why I enquired about faith and belief.

I get what you're trying to say but it is silly. It either occurred or it didn't. To what part of that does faith add? Faith is the excuse people give when they have no good reason to believe something. Otherwise, you'd produce your reasons. The fact that god desperately wants a relationship with everyone of us but just can't sem to do even the most simplistic things for his followers. Have you ever wondered why god made a world where the best process we have come up with to discern fact from ficrion routinely demonstrates he is nonexistant? Why is faith so important to the thing that can do anything except get over a minor transgresion that was his fault?

(26-04-2017 11:23 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  To all ex-Christians out there, how did it all pan out for you, when did you know you no longer believed, and how did you get over the fear of hell?

It took time and patience for me. Hell was the last thing to go and when it was gone, it was a great feeling that I was no longer afraid.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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27-04-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 10:02 AM)JesseB Wrote:  @SeaJay

Dude, check out the meetups app (or website) I'm willing to bet there's a number of Skeptic or Atheist meet-ups near you, I even have some semi close to me (If only I could afford the gas to go to one lol)

Ok will do

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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27-04-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Why I Believe
One day I'll find out why Girly Man keeps posting a picture of Gwyneth Paltrow jumping up in a bikini.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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27-04-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 10:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 08:20 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  If hell is not real then hell is not real

Oh it's real alright, it's just not what or where most people think it is.

Yea.......

Stupid shit religious folks say



DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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27-04-2017, 11:07 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 11:03 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  One day I'll find out why Girly Man keeps posting a picture of Gwyneth Paltrow jumping up in a bikini.

Because it's proof Gwyneth is god

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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27-04-2017, 11:20 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 11:04 AM)JesseB Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 10:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Oh it's real alright, it's just not what or where most people think it is.

Yea.......

Stupid shit religious folks say



A recording microphone dropped into a drilling hole .... "in the early 1900's" ... "over in Sweden" . Consider

Well, fuckmesilly - with this technology, this early - this means I probably could have had a Walkman in preschool. Those bastard Swedes were holding out on us! Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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27-04-2017, 11:52 AM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 11:07 AM)JesseB Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 11:03 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  One day I'll find out why Girly Man keeps posting a picture of Gwyneth Paltrow jumping up in a bikini.

Because it's proof Gwyneth is god

The point is that it can be perfectly rational to construct idols if devotion to those idols is purely for the purpose of maintaining sanity, or at least a sufficient pretense of it so they let you keep playing with others. Gwynnies is JohnnyC's. Bob is mine. Elwood P. Dowd's was a pooka named Harvey but that's more of a cautionary tale. Smile

#sigh
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27-04-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: Why I Believe
(27-04-2017 11:52 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 11:07 AM)JesseB Wrote:  Because it's proof Gwyneth is god

The point is that it can be perfectly rational to construct idols if devotion to those idols is purely for the purpose of maintaining sanity, or at least a sufficient pretense of it so they let you keep playing with others. Gwynnies is JohnnyC's. Bob is mine. Elwood P. Dowd's was a pooka named Harvey but that's more of a cautionary tale. Smile

lol, one of my best friends and I have had several candid talks about religion. He is Catholic and well he told me a few things

1. Being Catholic helps keep him sane
2. He doesn't want trouble with his family
3. He fears he changes his mind too easily (and is openly pretty gullible and prone to believe the first thing someone tells him) and tries to resist changing his mind cause he fears he changes his mind too easily. (it's a little confusing but I get why he feels that way)
4. He's bothered because he considers himself a rational person over all, just one that is too trusting of what people tell him. And he knows I am also a rational person who has done extensive research. He knows I have come to my position for a very solid reason, which means it's something he feels obligated to consider, but.... well.... it makes him uncomfortable (his word for it)

He's a programmer and knows science doesn't back up the bible, he isn't stupid enough to take the bible literally, and he openly acknowledges he has a high degree of cognitive dissonance on this subject. He just is too scared to face up to it, he knows it and admits it.

In other words for all practical purposes he's already an Atheist. He just isn't willing to face that fact yet. I think this is similar to what SeaJay has been goin through.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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