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Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
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04-08-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 08:15 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 07:56 AM)Zippo Wrote:  I actually don't believe in chairs.

You are doomed to forever wander around Ikea looking for an exit.

Satan stahp

Atir aissom atir imon
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04-08-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
I should explain to you why I don't not stamp collect.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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04-08-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(03-08-2014 08:40 PM)hbl Wrote:  The reason I don't believe in atheism is because something can't come from nothing. That which does not exist can't cause anything because it doesn't exist. For example, a square circle can't cause anything because it doesn't exist. Likewise, non-existence can't cause nature or the universe to come into being. Krauss would be wrong as well, because that which doesn't exist can't split into something. It doesn't exist.

And nature can't always have existed either, because if it did, you would by that definition have had an eternity to come into being before now in an infinite regression of cause and effects, so you should have already happened.

Moreover, infinite regress is inherently self-contradictory because if there was this past eternity of cause and effects as part of nature, the universe or universes, then a past eternity should continue to go on for eternity, never reaching this point in the here and now. Thus, past eternity is a man made construct, but doesn't exist in reality.

Therefore, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. Knowing this, we know, therefore, that nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is whom we call God. If you ask me what I mean by the term God, the first thing I would tell you is that this is the 'uncreated Creator'.

Knowing that God exists, it is incumbent upon us to find out where God reveals Himself as only one faith can be true because God does not contradict Himself. He makes Himself known rather than unknown as we have already seen by this proof. What else does He reveal about Himself?

Well hbl, welcome to the forum. Now perhaps you could strive a bit harder to articulate your point of view without spitting out soundbites that have long been disproven. Wanna see? The easiest dismantlement of first causal is what caused god? How do you know this particular universe is the only one? What happened before the big bang? Which god by the way, IAW (KJV) Psalms 82.1 god is one of many...how do you know of god? because of a fictional book long disproven? Take an evolution class, perhaps a few theology classes, then come back with some better shit. If you finally learn to substantiate and validate your faith (belief in something without evidence) feel free to enter a debate with me and I will break you down like a stack of dominoes....

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 03:28 AM)hbl Wrote:  Obviously, you don't know what's best for you otherwise you would never be selfish or sin.

So find out how to live from Whom is greater than you after all He created you.

Do you have any evidence for that? Any that's not presuppositional?
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04-08-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(03-08-2014 08:40 PM)hbl Wrote:  Therefore, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. Knowing this, we know, therefore, that nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is whom we call God. If you ask me what I mean by the term God, the first thing I would tell you is that this is the 'uncreated Creator'.

So, the obvious question: what created God?

You invoked a universal rule to make God required, then you go ahead and violate that rule with God. That's called special pleading. Now, I'm assuming you have an explanation for this, such as "God is timeless" or "God is eternal". This would make God act outside of our notion of causality, allowing him to exist without cause and to be the seed for the natural universe.

So, this means that you believe in entities that can exist outside of causality. Do you see the problem with that? How do you know the universe didn't cause itself? Sure, that sounds odd and presuppositional, but so does God. How do you know that the universe which we can observe is just a smaller part of something larger that doesn't exist in our observable dimensions? As stupid as that may sound to you, invoking an invisible wizard who lives outside of our observable dimensions seems pretty stupid to us.

Your argument makes sense to you because it tells you what you want to hear, not because it actually answers anything. Your answer to "where did everything come from?" involves making a lot of crap up and then getting all smug about it.


(03-08-2014 08:40 PM)hbl Wrote:  Knowing that God exists, it is incumbent upon us to find out where God reveals Himself as only one faith can be true because God does not contradict Himself. He makes Himself known rather than unknown as we have already seen by this proof. What else does He reveal about Himself?

Whoa! Hold on, you're getting ahead of yourself. Even if your cosmological argument held water, you just proved the need for a prime mover, not a god. More specifically, you haven't proven your god.

Do you have any evidence your god exists that doesn't require presupposing he exists in the first place?
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04-08-2014, 09:22 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 09:18 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Do you have any evidence your god exists that doesn't require presupposing he exists in the first place?

No. But the Bible clearly states that such evidence is not necessary Rolleyes

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-08-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 09:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 09:18 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Do you have any evidence your god exists that doesn't require presupposing he exists in the first place?

No. But the Bible clearly states that such evidence is not necessary Rolleyes

I know. God proves Bible. Bible proves God.

It's a house built on a foundation of... the house above it. Creationists are incapable of looking at more than one floor of their house at a time. They don't realize they're living in an Escher print.

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04-08-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 09:27 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I know. God proves Bible. Bible proves God.

A classic solution to the problem of infinite regress! A demonstration of the natural relationship between circles and infinity, between circular thinking and God.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-08-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(03-08-2014 11:14 PM)hbl Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 09:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No atheist "believes in atheism". A-theism the the absence of something.

Since you believe atheists don't believe in atheism then that is a contradiction that contradicts atheists who do believe in atheism. The Bible says that is immoral to have a "doubletongue" (1 Tim. 3.8).

Atheism is a belief in absence of God so the belief in absence is not an absence of belief.

You know, your quoting from the Bible is meaningless. Do you think Jesus had a stenographer who followed him around and wrote everything down verbatim, exactly and precisely as he said it? When he was in the Garden of Gethsemane and his followers were asleep, who wrote down what Jesus said? Was this stenographer hiding under a shrubbery taking down exact notes on his verbiage? Not only that but the gospels weren't even written until 40 to 100 years after he died leaving a whole lot of room for the Chinese Whispering game to play out and weren't even written by eyewitness accounts, despite what you've probably been told. So quoting from the Bible is like quoting from How To Make A Buggy Whip. It doesn't do squat.

Your argument for god or gods creating the universe is the following. You can't think of anything other than X to explain Y, therefore x exists. This is called a logical fallacy.

Then there is your idea that everything existing has a creator, there for a creator must exist. If your creator exists but doesn't need a creator you are in a special pleading scenario.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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04-08-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(03-08-2014 08:40 PM)hbl Wrote:  The reason I don't believe in atheism is because something can't come from nothing. That which does not exist can't cause anything because it doesn't exist. For example, a square circle can't cause anything because it doesn't exist. Likewise, non-existence can't cause nature or the universe to come into being. Krauss would be wrong as well, because that which doesn't exist can't split into something. It doesn't exist.

And nature can't always have existed either, because if it did, you would by that definition have had an eternity to come into being before now in an infinite regression of cause and effects, so you should have already happened.

Moreover, infinite regress is inherently self-contradictory because if there was this past eternity of cause and effects as part of nature, the universe or universes, then a past eternity should continue to go on for eternity, never reaching this point in the here and now. Thus, past eternity is a man made construct, but doesn't exist in reality.

Therefore, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. Knowing this, we know, therefore, that nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is whom we call God. If you ask me what I mean by the term God, the first thing I would tell you is that this is the 'uncreated Creator'.

Knowing that God exists, it is incumbent upon us to find out where God reveals Himself as only one faith can be true because God does not contradict Himself. He makes Himself known rather than unknown as we have already seen by this proof. What else does He reveal about Himself?
1. Something came from nothing.
2. Something has always existed (not necessarily the same one thing continuously).

Neither of those two statements appear to be possible and yet it seems one must be true. Merely asserting one over the other doesn't make the one true. The only accurate conclusion right now is we don't know how to explain the origin of everything or the lack of origin of everything.

You claim the answer is "God", but that's just an arbitrary replacement for "we don't know". In addition, merely claiming "God" tells us nothing about what "God" is. So it is no more of an answer than "we don't know" anyway.

P.S. I didn't reply to your poll because the question makes no sense.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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