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Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
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04-08-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
Quote:We know there was never just nothing

This statement requires a whole lot more than just your say so.
Everything you stated after this is false.
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04-08-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 06:03 PM)hbl Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 05:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  Two unsubstantiated assertions.
You don't know that there ever was 'nothing'.
Again, you are asserting that something natural could have existed prior to or not of, this universe. You have not proved it or even provided evidence.

We know there was never just nothing, because if all there ever was was non-existence then nothing would ever exist--you would not exist--because that which does not exist can't cause anything since it doesn't exist. Something in nature always must come from something.

We know neither the universe always existed or something prior to the universe naturally existed infinitely in the past, because if they had, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

Therefore, as before in the opening post and continually reiterated with the same proof, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated, whom we call God.

YOU PREACH IT BABY! I LOVE YOU SO MUCH AND YOUR STEEL PLATED BALLS!Drooling

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04-08-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 05:45 PM)hbl Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 12:10 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I agree with you that there can't be an infinite regress of causes but neither can there be a consciousness as a first cause of everything because that contradicts a known fact of reality which is the primacy of existence principle.

The only other alternative is an uncaused, eternal universe. This alternative has an advantage in that it doesn't contradict any essential facts of existence as does a consciousness as a first cause or an infinite regress of causes. I think you need to acknowledge that your chosen explanation does conflict with known facts. This is what theists never do. They take the issue of primacy for granted.

A consciousness of a first cause of everything agrees with the known facts that infinite regress and something from nothing are impossible, and the lesser cannot create the greater so as we have a mind so does God. God can't have morals below our own, nor self-awareness below our own.

You've contradicted yourself because on one hand you said "there can't be infinite regress" in nature and then plead for "an uncaused, eternal universe" which is by definition an infinite regress of nature. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

So the explanation in the opening post remains unchallenged, and you need to go back to the drawing board. God is not an atheist and an atheist is not God so stop trying to be. That's the simplest explanation.

The explanation in the OP is totally defeated by the primacy of existence principle.

I said there can be no such thing as an infinite regress of causes. That's different then an infinite regress of nature. You don't mind there being an infinite regress of God do you? That's because you implicitly hold a primacy of consciousness view of the universe. But we know from direct observation that that view is wrong. Now we can imagine a consciousness existing before any objects but that is all we can do. But your religion blurs the distinction between the real and the imaginary. That is its stock in trade.

The primacy of existence is a fact of reality and your god belief directly contradicts it. You can't escape from that fact. If you say that nature or existence can't be eternal you are denying that existence is an absolute. There can be no such thing as a consciousness with nothing else to be conscious of besides itself. That is the problem of divine lonesomeness. We know existence exists and it is an absolute. We have no evidence of anything that exists outside of reality. What problems have you solved by going outside of existence to look for a cause. You are saying, I know that existence exists but I'm not satisfied with that as a starting point. I'm going to go outside of existence to an unknowable cause and call that God. You haven't solved any logical problems.

Does your god exist because you want it to or does it exist independently of anyone's conscious action?

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04-08-2014, 06:35 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 06:03 PM)hbl Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 05:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  Two unsubstantiated assertions.
You don't know that there ever was 'nothing'.
Again, you are asserting that something natural could have existed prior to or not of, this universe. You have not proved it or even provided evidence.

We know there was never just nothing, because if all there ever was was non-existence then nothing would ever exist--you would not exist--because that which does not exist can't cause anything since it doesn't exist. Something in nature always must come from something.

We know neither the universe always existed or something prior to the universe naturally existed infinitely in the past, because if they had, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

Therefore, as before in the opening post and continually reiterated with the same proof, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated, whom we call God.

[Image: smiley-signs080.gif]
After having survived LSD, and after having seen the movie Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas in which the characters Dr. Gonzo and Hunter S Thompson partake of some adrenaline that was supposedly extracted from an adrenal gland that had been removed from a living person & having it cause them to hallucinate...
I'd kinda like to chop up the area of the human brain that allows for such high levels of delusion, and inject it or smoke it, somehow Smokin Just to experiment Shy
Sorry Confused

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04-08-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 06:03 PM)hbl Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 05:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  Two unsubstantiated assertions.
You don't know that there ever was 'nothing'.
Again, you are asserting that something natural could have existed prior to or not of, this universe. You have not proved it or even provided evidence.

We know there was never just nothing, because if all there ever was was non-existence then nothing would ever exist--you would not exist--because that which does not exist can't cause anything since it doesn't exist. Something in nature always must come from something.

Something in the nature that you know of, perhaps. You don't know what you don't know.

Quote:We know neither the universe always existed or something prior to the universe naturally existed infinitely in the past, because if they had, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

Again, no. Whatever was before our universe might be so different that there was no possibility of what is in this universe to exist. So your assertion is unfounded.


Quote:Therefore, as before in the opening post and continually reiterated with the same proof, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated, whom we call God.

You have provided no proof. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-08-2014, 07:29 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 05:45 PM)hbl Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 12:10 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I agree with you that there can't be an infinite regress of causes but neither can there be a consciousness as a first cause of everything because that contradicts a known fact of reality which is the primacy of existence principle.

The only other alternative is an uncaused, eternal universe. This alternative has an advantage in that it doesn't contradict any essential facts of existence as does a consciousness as a first cause or an infinite regress of causes. I think you need to acknowledge that your chosen explanation does conflict with known facts. This is what theists never do. They take the issue of primacy for granted.

A consciousness of a first cause of everything agrees with the known facts that infinite regress and something from nothing are impossible, and the lesser cannot create the greater so as we have a mind so does God. God can't have morals below our own, nor self-awareness below our own.

You've contradicted yourself because on one hand you said "there can't be infinite regress" in nature and then plead for "an uncaused, eternal universe" which is by definition an infinite regress of nature. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

So the explanation in the opening post remains unchallenged, and you need to go back to the drawing board. God is not an atheist and an atheist is not God so stop trying to be. That's the simplest explanation.

Actually HBL, Venus is hollow and full of little blue men, who created earth and all living things on it by sprinkling fairy dust in their Great Sky Cauldron, prove me wrong...you can't? that is because it is true!

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"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 07:29 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 05:45 PM)hbl Wrote:  A consciousness of a first cause of everything agrees with the known facts that infinite regress and something from nothing are impossible, and the lesser cannot create the greater so as we have a mind so does God. God can't have morals below our own, nor self-awareness below our own.

You've contradicted yourself because on one hand you said "there can't be infinite regress" in nature and then plead for "an uncaused, eternal universe" which is by definition an infinite regress of nature. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

So the explanation in the opening post remains unchallenged, and you need to go back to the drawing board. God is not an atheist and an atheist is not God so stop trying to be. That's the simplest explanation.

Actually HBL, Venus is hollow and full of little blue men, who created earth and all living things on it by sprinkling fairy dust in their Great Sky Cauldron, prove me wrong...you can't? that is because it is true!

[Image: sb3gwi.jpg]

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04-08-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 06:03 PM)hbl Wrote:  We know neither the universe always existed or something prior to the universe naturally existed infinitely in the past, because if they had, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

*shrug* Maybe we did happen already, a gazillion times or more. So what? If we can't remember it happening, from our own perspective it feels unique.

That said, even in an infinite series there is sufficient scope for an infinite number of infinitesimal variations in the position of each and every atom, making it quite possible for the universe to never repeat itself.
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04-08-2014, 09:37 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 09:10 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Maybe we did happen already, a gazillion times or more. So what? If we can't remember it happening, from our own perspective it feels unique.

You are the only you that you are now. Any other time is not the same since it is at a different time and space. Therefore, infinite regress remains impossible and consequently atheism false.
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04-08-2014, 10:01 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(04-08-2014 09:37 PM)hbl Wrote:  You are the only you that you are now.

Not proven. I could easily have duplicates all over the multiverse.

Quote:Any other time is not the same since it is at a different time and space.

Irrelevant, as I have no memory of such and conduct My life as if this is the only one I will ever have.

Quote:Therefore, infinite regress remains impossible and consequently atheism false.

Unsupported assertion and non sequitur. Infinite regress is quite possible, as I already demonstrated via the concept of infinitesimals, and atheism is quite true for Me if I find it impossible to believe in your god. If your god wants Me to believe in it, it'll have to visit Me in person, as I find ancient scriptures and the assertions of mortals such as yourself quite unconvincing.
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