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Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
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06-08-2014, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2014 09:45 PM by hbl.)
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
What are the 4 reasons commonly cited why legends theory fails?

1) Original disciples claimed resurrection from the beginning so there is nothing to embellish.
2) Paul claimed to have seen Jesus, led to his conversion and was in agreement with the original Apostles.
3) James, brother of Jesus, claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected which led to his conversion.
4) Critics need evidence to overturn these points.
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06-08-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(06-08-2014 09:29 PM)hbl Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 09:17 PM)wazzel Wrote:  There are no contemporary wrightings by the apostles or anyone else about Jesus at the time Jesus was supposed to be alive. There is no recorded eye witness testimony because the people that actually wrote the gospels were not even alive at the time the crucifixion took place.

These mysterious unknown writers you speak of are nowhere to be found. The 4 gospel accounts were written at least in part when Jesus was alive and completed as a whole within a decade of His death on the cross. They were completed before the Apostles were martyred. John refers to himself in John at the cross and makes a further reference in his epistles he was an eyewitness of Jesus resurrected. James makes mention of seeing Jesus alive from the dead leading to his conversion. Peter said he saw Jesus alive from the dead in his epistles also. Mark refers to himself running naked in the street. Matthew writes as a tax collector that he is emphasizing Jesus as king in his account. And Luke was comprehensive stating Acts was part 2 of his former work of Luke. Since Luke made no mention of Paul's death and Paul died around 65 AD that puts Acts around 50 AD. And Luke came before that around 40 AD. Since Luke took from Mark that puts Mark around 35 AD just 2 years after the cross. Additionally Paul said he spent 15 days with Peter in Gal. 1, spent time with James and John as well mentioned in Gal. 2. He said the gospel account they gave him was the same he received from Jesus. So your late dating legends theory falls apart completely, for Paul's association with the Apostles takes us right back to the cross of Jesus the very people who spent 3 years with Jesus. The first churches by Peter, John and James were setup on the eyewitness testimony of Jesus resurrected.

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06-08-2014, 09:41 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(06-08-2014 09:37 PM)hbl Wrote:  What are the 4 reasons commonly cited why legends theory fails?

1) Original disciples claimed resurrection from the beginning so there is nothing to embellish.
2) Paul claimed to have seen Jesus and was in agreement with the original Apostles.
3) James, brother of Jesus, claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected which led to his conversion.
4) Critics need evidence to overturn these points.

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06-08-2014, 09:50 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
The Minimal Facts Approach accumulates the position of most scholars on the resurrection, whether atheist, other religion or Christian, and they agree the most secure writing in the NT is Paul's 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2. In those 3 chapters he does several things:

1) recounts the gospel message he received from Peter, John and James and mentioned various resurrection appearances of various groups.
2) said he spent 2 weeks with Peter, and time with John and James as well.
3) his eyewitness testimony agrees with that of the Apostles.
4) Paul and the original Apostles set up the churches on the resurrection of Jesus.
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06-08-2014, 09:52 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
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06-08-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
The Bible is the word of God because it proves it so and since you can't find anything wrong with it, it is infallible.
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06-08-2014, 09:59 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
I try to keep it simple for you. Occam's Razor and all that.

Since the original Apostles, James and Paul all claimed to have seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings to prevent group hallucinations and setup the first churches on the resurrection of Jesus then later writers don't interfere with that whatever they write.

We should be concerned primarily with earliest sources which would be the 27 books of the NT and not later writings after the first century often called the 'other books'.

26 of the 27 books of the NT were written from the time of Christ to anywhere from 40 AD to 60 AD before their authors died in the Neronian persecutions. The 27th book Revelation was completed by John 95 AD. He was the only one not to be martyred at that time though he was later martyred.
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06-08-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(06-08-2014 09:37 PM)hbl Wrote:  What are the 4 reasons commonly cited why legends theory fails?

1) Original disciples claimed resurrection from the beginning so there is nothing to embellish.
2) Paul claimed to have seen Jesus, led to his conversion and was in agreement with the original Apostles.
3) James, brother of Jesus, claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected which led to his conversion.
4) Critics need evidence to overturn these points.

1 - No. First, establish who the 'original' disciples were, because there is an ever revolving cadre of roughly 11~13 at any given time. Then, you need to establish that they themselves actually existed. All of this is before we get to looking at the claim of resurrection, which for the record the oldest writings (the Epistles of Paul) speak only of a spiritual Jesus and a spiritual resurrection, or of nothing at all (the oldest version of the oldest Gospel, Mark, ends without the resurrection).

2 - Paul claimed to have seen a vision of Jesus, a spiritual Jesus, not a flesh and blood physical human being. Paul never talks about anything that might connect Jesus to reality, he never even mentions Jesus' family, birth, or any of the supposed earthly miracles.

3 - Ditto for James.

4 - NO. People making the claim in the truth of the resurrection need to provide evidence it actually happened. You cannot unilaterally reverse the burden of proof. Following your logic, then the stories of Muhammad and Joseph Smith are booth true until skeptics can present counter evidence. Using your logic, every religious claim (including all of the contradictory ones) is true until proven otherwise. Sane, rational, thinking adults don't think this way; because it leads to adopting a ton of contradictory beliefs with no way to determine what is and is not accurate or true.







Once again, you don't know shit. In fact, you don't have a clue just how much you don't know. Drinking Beverage

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06-08-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(06-08-2014 09:37 PM)hbl Wrote:  What are the 4 reasons commonly cited why legends theory fails?

1) Original disciples claimed resurrection from the beginning so there is nothing to embellish.
2) Paul claimed to have seen Jesus, led to his conversion and was in agreement with the original Apostles.
3) James, brother of Jesus, claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected which led to his conversion.
4) Critics need evidence to overturn these points.

Disciples "claimed" resurrection. Paul "claimed" to have seen Jesus etc.

Claims....

verb
3rd person present: claims
1.
state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
"he claimed that he came from a wealthy, educated family"

Claims.....

noun
plural noun: claims
1.
an assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt.
"he was dogged by the claim that he had CIA links"

There you go again, "claiming" the Bible to be true because the Bible "claims" it's true. It says so right here! Facepalm

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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06-08-2014, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2014 10:32 PM by hbl.)
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(06-08-2014 10:20 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  1 - No. First, establish who the 'original' disciples were, because there is an ever revolving cadre of roughly 11~13 at any given time. Then, you need to establish that they themselves actually existed. All of this is before we get to looking at the claim of resurrection, which for the record the oldest writings (the Epistles of Paul) speak only of a spiritual Jesus and a spiritual resurrection, or of nothing at all (the oldest version of the oldest Gospel, Mark, ends without the resurrection).

There is no revolving 11 to 13. It was always 12. Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. James son of Zebedee was the first to be martyred and was not replaced.

Jesus and these Apostles are the most documented people in antiquity. If that standard is not good enough for you why would God need to provide more since that won't convince you either? God's not going to waste words on you.

Paul only ever spoke of the physical Jesus he saw resurrected, sharing the same bodily resurrection message as Peter, James and John in 1 Cor. 15. Mark makes mention of the resurrection of Jesus also bodily.

You are confused in your mistaken assumptions which frankly is delusional.
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