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Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
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07-08-2014, 12:43 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 12:46 AM by hbl.)
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(07-08-2014 12:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The Gospels are not eye-witness accounts.

They are eyewitness accounts written during the life of Jesus by their named authors who were the closest to Jesus to know. The Apostles had this authority to record the events. All the books of the NT were completed before the Apostles were martyred. Being martyred around 65 AD the works were done by then. And Revelation was completed by 95 AD because John was martyred after that.
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07-08-2014, 12:45 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
It wouldn't make much sense to place the NT after the church fathers quoted from the NT.

The church fathers in the late 1st and 2nd centuries quote all the verses of the NT except for 11 verses.
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07-08-2014, 12:49 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(07-08-2014 12:39 AM)hbl Wrote:  The earliest surviving source for Julius Caesar is over 1000 years later. Not so with Jesus the most documented person in antiquity. The earliest still surviving papyri is in the late first century merely 70 years after Jesus died on the cross.

The multiple corroboration for Jesus from so many different individuals in their writings in the 1st century. All you need do is read through the NT to find corroboration you simply can't find any historical figure from antiquity.

Once gain, lying for Jesus won't get you into heaven any faster.

We have contemporary attestation of Caesar from his allies, his enemies, neutral observers, and Caesar's own fucking writings. Causer's actions and existence are both historically dependent. We have nothing like that for Jesus, nothing even remotely close.

Also, that is another lie. The oldest scraps of the New Testament, specifically the Gospel of Matthew, are between 150-200 CE. How big are these scraps? Anywhere from a single page to the size of a credit card with only a few words on it.

There is ZERO contemporary attestation for Jesus in the first century. If you claim otherwise, then show it. Who, what, when, and where is Jesus mentioned? It's bullshit, you just don't know it yet, you sad ignorant fool.

Here is P1, one of the earliest known 'manuscripts'. Yeah, that's all there is.

[Image: 640px-Papyrus_1_-_recto.jpg]

Once again, you don't know shit.

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07-08-2014, 12:57 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(07-08-2014 12:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The oldest scraps of the New Testament, specifically the Gospel of Matthew, are between 150-200 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New...ent_papyri

Some have dated these fragments of John from late 1st century but as late as 125 AD.

Compare that to Caesar over 1000 years later. There is no comparison.

Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and Julius Caesar earliest sources are over 1000 years later. It's silly to even compare. Again, God holds the highest of standards providing better evidence than anyone in antiquity and more sources than any 10 figures combined within 150 years of their deaths.



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07-08-2014, 01:06 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(07-08-2014 12:57 AM)hbl Wrote:  Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and Julius Caesar earliest sources are over 1000 years later. It's silly to even compare. Again, God holds the highest of standards providing better evidence than anyone in antiquity and more sources than any 10 figures combined within 150 years of their deaths.

Oh for fuck's sake.



#sigh
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07-08-2014, 01:35 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(07-08-2014 12:57 AM)hbl Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 12:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The oldest scraps of the New Testament, specifically the Gospel of Matthew, are between 150-200 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New...ent_papyri

Some have dated these fragments of John from late 1st century but as late as 125 AD.

Compare that to Caesar over 1000 years later. There is no comparison.

Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and Julius Caesar earliest sources are over 1000 years later. It's silly to even compare. Again, God holds the highest of standards providing better evidence than anyone in antiquity and more sources than any 10 figures combined within 150 years of their deaths.




Fuck you, you lying piece of shit.

Julius Caesar was born on the 12th or 13th of July in 100 BC in Rome, and died on the 15th of March in 44 BC at the age of 55. Caesar is mentioned by the contemporary historian Sallust (86-34 BC), as well as Suetonius (c75-120 CE), and Plutarch (46-127 CE).

Quote:Chapter after chapter by the historian Appian (c95-165AD) relate complex chains of events in which Julius Caesar was intimately involved. There are the many other critically important mentions too, for example in the works of Cicero, Dio Cassius, Livy, Lucan, Valerius Maximus, Vitruvius, Catullus...

What is the epic story of Pompey the Great without Julius Caesar? What gaping holes would there be in the stories of Cleopatra or Mark Antony without Julius Caesar? Or for that matter of Octavian, Cicero and Cato? So much of Roman history depends upon this one man he is like the centerpiece of its history...

In addition, we can find numerous inscriptions and monuments, statues and coins. There is not enough material to satisfy my appetite, (I am still hoping for textual material to be rescued from Herculaneum) but there is, undeniably, quite a bit of historical evidence that a man named Julius Caesar did indeed exist.

On the other hand, with the case of this Jesus fellow, we have a few obviously mythicized accounts that are, frankly, an astonishing mess. These gospels, if taken as a body of work to be used as a 'historical source', are full of factual errors and embarrassing contradictions, with some awed descriptions of petty street charlatan tricks thrown in, worshipful remembrances of "miracles" that smack of already extant and ancient mythical accounts of other gods, and so many intricate and twisted allusions to Jewish legend and prophecy that one begins to think that it is a bit overdone.

However, are there any accounts by men who might be considered historians? None are contemporary except one: Josephus. All except Josephus do not talk directly of Jesus but of "Chrestians" or followers of Chrestos, or just Christians, and the descriptions of these people are vague and undistinguished.

We are left with only Josephus, the turncoat Jewish general. There are two mentions in his works that read more as if they were written by medieval Christian monks than by a Jew living in the Roman empire of the first century. I am not impressed in the least by the Testimonium Flavianum. I cannot help but strongly suspect it is a wonderful example of an interpolation, and if it is the best historical evidence for this "Jesus Christ" that can be found, then there simply isn't any at all.
Sure: we've got tons of accumulated and venerated flotsam and jetsam piled neck-deep for us to wade through, but nearly all of it dates to centuries after the fact.

So I find it disappointing that any serious historical scholar or educated person interested in history would think for a moment that the historical existence of Julius Caesar is as questionable as is the historical existence of Jesus Christ. There really is no comparison in these two cases. On the one hand we have a living apple tree. On the other hand we have a thousand old, faded, grainy photographs of paintings and drawings (never the actual paintings or drawings, mind you) of a sliced orange.

http://mythicpast.blogspot.com/2006/02/h...aesar.html


Also, we actually have primary sources for Ceasar. You know, like the books Caesar actually wrote himself. We also have statues, busts, and coinage in his image created while he was alive.

To attempt to even equate that we have equal amount of evidence for the existence of Caesar and Jesus is laughable, to claim that the evidence for Jesus is better is willfully delusional and ignorant in the extreme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caes...ry_sources


Once again, you don't know shit.

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07-08-2014, 01:48 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 01:53 AM by hbl.)
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(07-08-2014 01:35 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Julius Caesar

The earliest still surviving source for Julius Caesar is over 1000 years after his death. That's a fact. But for Jesus we still have surviving papyri that is about 50 years after His death.

Anything about Julius Caesar applying your standard would suggest he never even existed.

Within 150 years of Jesus' death we have 45 sources and 17 of which are non-Christian more than any 10 figures from antiquity combined.

So it is incumbent upon you to go further and deal with the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles seeing Jesus alive from the dead.

I welcome all attempts as I have a ready set answer for all of them that shows there is no naturalistic explanation, thus, proving Jesus resurrected Himself just as He prophesied that He would.
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07-08-2014, 01:50 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
For example, legend theory fails because:

1) Original disciples claimed resurrection from the beginning so there is nothing to embellish.
2) Paul claimed to have seen Jesus, led to his conversion and was in agreement with the original Apostles.
3) James, brother of Jesus, claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected which led to his conversion.
4) Critics need evidence to overturn these points.
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07-08-2014, 01:50 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(06-08-2014 06:57 PM)hbl Wrote:  Can you think of a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles? Remember, this is the best proof God could ever provide and the best proof you can fathom.


Your god could have easily explained the concept of germs and saved humans from untold misery, or even that the world was round orbiting one of many stars in one of many galaxies that were all expanding away from one another.

That would have been far more convincing proof.

Strange how God's so-called 'proof' coincides with the state of human ignorance at the time the Bible was written by humans.
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07-08-2014, 01:52 AM
RE: Why I Don't Believe in Atheism
(07-08-2014 01:48 AM)hbl Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 01:35 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Julius Caesar

The earliest still surviving source for Julius Caesar is over 1000 years after his death. That's a fact. But for Jesus we still have surviving papyri that is about 50 years after His death.

Within 150 years of Jesus' death we have 45 sources and 17 of which are non-Christian more than any 10 figures from antiquity combined.

So it is incumbent upon you to go further and deal with the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles seeing Jesus alive from the dead.

I welcome all attempts as I have a ready set answer for all of them that shows there is no naturalistic explanation, thus, proving Jesus resurrected Himself just as He prophesied that He would.

I'm done with you.

Repeating lies over and over again doesn't make them true. Thanks for proving, yet again, why Christianity is losing the culture war.

Because if you have to lie to protect your 'truth', it's not very truthful in the first place.

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