Why I am a vegetarian....

[Chas]

(17-02-2013 02:18 PM)Zat Wrote:  ...
One last try and then I am gone from this thread.

Many meat-lovers are also technically savvy, love their computers, their modern technology: space travel, airplanes, video games, even smart military technology, not mentioning their iPhones, Internet, texing, etc., etc., etc.

Yet, many on them insist on using pre-industrial-revolution technology and solutions when it comes to their most important need: food.

One would expect the same people to cry out for new scientific/industrial technologies, where healthier meat is manufactured in clean, modern factories, at a far lower cost (if everything is counted) than meat obtained from the "meat industry".

The 'meat-industry' that is obsolete, wasteful, cruel, barbaric, messy, inefficient.

The technology is already there, all it needs is support from the population and investment by the money-bags.

Of course, the media is not doing its job (with few exceptions) on informing the population, but it is no excuse for the technology-loving people on this and other forums who don't want to even think about it.

All the information is readily available on the Internet.

They want their stake, they want their bacon and can't imagine obtaining it from anywhere else than the torture chambers of the food industry.

I guess it must be due to lack of imagination and fear of change.

These two human attributes are the major obstacles in the path of real progress: alternative energy, alternative meat solutions, alternative social contracts.

And with this last post I believe I have said everything I want to say on this topic, and now I am gone to greener pastures.

You are making assumptions that aren't warranted.

If cultured meat were available at competitive prices, I would eat that. Many people I know would eat that, too.

[Zat]

(17-02-2013 02:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are making assumptions that aren't warranted.
If cultured meat were available at competitive prices, I would eat that. Many people I know would eat that, too.

...
Clarification: It could be, if enough people supported it. The technology is there. It needs industrial-scale development.

What I underlined in my previous post was my main point.

That is why I underlined it -- so nobody could possibly miss it (I bet they will! ).

I think that covers it for me.

I am now truly gone from the thread.

[Chas]

(17-02-2013 02:42 PM)Zat Wrote:  They want their stake, they want their bacon and can't imagine obtaining it from anywhere else than the torture chambers of the food industry.

I guess it must be due to lack of imagination and fear of change.

These unwarranted and inflammatory assumptions to be precise.

[Mr Woof]

(17-02-2013 02:18 PM)Zat Wrote:  ...
One last try and then I am gone from this thread.

Many meat-lovers are also technically savvy, love their computers, their modern technology: space travel, airplanes, video games, even smart military technology, not mentioning their iPhones, Internet, texing, etc., etc., etc.

Yet, many on them insist on using pre-industrial-revolution technology and solutions when it comes to their most important need: food.

One would expect the same people to cry out for new scientific/industrial technologies, where healthier meat is manufactured in clean, modern factories, at a far lower cost (if everything is counted) than meat obtained from the "meat industry".

The 'meat-industry' that is obsolete, wasteful, cruel, barbaric, messy, inefficient.

The technology is already there, all it needs is support from the population and investment by the money-bags.

Of course, the media is not doing its job (with few exceptions) on informing the population, but it is no excuse for the technology-loving people on this and other forums who don't want to even think about it.

All the information is readily available on the Internet.

They want their stake, they want their bacon and can't imagine obtaining it from anywhere else than the torture chambers of the food industry.

I guess it must be due to lack of imagination and fear of change.

These two human attributes are the major obstacles in the path of real progress: alternative energy, alternative meat solutions, alternative social contracts.

And with this last post I believe I have said everything I want to say on this topic, and now I am gone to greener pastures.

This debate tends to be polarised, skipping over some quite salient issues.

For mine I certainly see a strong issue in factory animals, gross cruelty to chickens, and the turning of animals into simply designer foods. As, has been pointed out, our attitudes here will take a lot of changing.
When considering animal suffering we cannot ignore suffering in the natural domain. Long sufferings from heat, broken limbs, thirst, starvation, not to mention all the predators, despite the fact that such deaths are usually relevantly quick.
Is a more humane and limited slaughter so bad compared to nature's end? The issue of animals such as rabbits and kangaroos (big breeders) destroying crops and the livelihood of farmers also comes to mind.

As for the health aspect a limited amount of fish and meat may be a good idea especially for some people.
The mass consumption of animal fat,growth hormones, colorants, penicillin, etc via snacks.... and meat three times a day is another story all together.We really need to find some middle ground between the use and the abuse of animals.
Fanaticism is a dangerous steed indeed, irrespective of its genesis.

I rather like prawns (very high in cholesterol) and condemned by atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling on the grounds of possible suffering. Peter Singer, to my knowledge ,is still heavily into animal rights. They are not to be eaten. At one time he held that consensual sex( human /animal) subject to consent, presumably by both parties, was acceptable.
As for meat, it has no strong appeal to me, so I can't moralise in not consuming it.

I must say that I do not find vego meals as appetising as fish fishes, which I consume occasionally.
The vegetarian sausages taste a bit like flavoured sawdust and imo the so called meat substitutes are inferior.
As for choice, re frozen meat/fish dishes, these out number the vegetarian dishes about 20 to 1.
I wonder too, if science can promise safe synthesised alternatives to meat, given GMO controversies, and the fact that not all scientific endeavour seems geared to humanity's welfare.

[yakherder]

I find the centenarian studies to be the least biased, since it's easier to pinpoint commonalities across varying cultures from different times. Out of the people who have lived the longest: Some were vegetarians, some where not. About the only thing they share in regards to diet is volume. People who eat just enough to get by tend to live a long time. People who stuff themselves at every meal tend to die young regardless of what it is they're stuffing themselves with.

There are also groups that tend to stick to specific diets that can be used to provide hints. Vegetarian 7th Adventists have above average lifespans. The traditional Okinawan diet is fairly well balanced, and has produced a crazy number of centenarians (people who live past 100). The longest average male lifespan belongs to Iceland, which relies heavily on red meat, fish, and dairy. None of these can decisively tell us what makes people live a long time, but what they can tell us is that the above diets are clearly not significantly contributing to their deaths.

I personally think the micromanagement of one's diet for the purpose of staying healthy is overrated, beyond a select few proven dangers, namely excess sugar and hydrogenated fats.

I only mention this information because I personally find it very counterproductive when people from either side of the debate try to focus too much on what is healthy and what isn't when it is very clear that there are many healthy and unhealthy people consuming both vegetarian and non-vegetarian diets. The answer to good health lies elsewhere.

My own arguments for vegetarianism are a combination of ethical and rational based concepts, but with the realization that the only person who can view the world through my lenses is me. I might be right when viewing the world as me but wrong when viewing the world as you.

So to other vegetarians, no red meat won't kill you (unless you gorge on it every chance you get, in which case any food will eventually kill you), and to the non-vegetarians, yes I get enough protein. I'm not a stereotypical skinny pale vegetarian, I'm a soldier who is addicted to aggression and who knows and enjoys the thrill of the hunt more than I care to explain here. I've simply decided that I no longer feel I have a reason to kill animals for food. If I did, I would do so without hesitation and not feel bad about it.

And in regards to the poor of America not tending towards vegetarianism, let's drop the subsidies that keep the meat industry stable and see how long that lasts. I imagine everyone would be eating a lot less meat if the market price matched the actual price rather than being taken out of our taxes.

Smartass comments aside, however, I couldn't care less what everyone eats. Pre-vegetarian I've had everything from roasted tarantula legs to dog stir fry. As a 10 year old kid in Alaska, I'd put a bullet (or sometimes an arrow, I used to love bow hunting) through a moose's lungs and then sit back and watch it die over the next few minutes as its lungs collapsed before gutting and cleaning it myself, something most of you "I'm like a tiger" (the kind who gets his factory chicken in plastic wrap) carnivores don't seem to have much experience with. You're not gonna gross me out or offend me. And if I'm right that modern meat consumption will be an emerging economic and environmental issue the way we currently go about it, then worst case scenario we all starve to death and die. Such is life If I'm wrong then, well, I'm still healthy so I should be around long enough for you to say "I told you so."

[Hobbitgirl]

So much for the non-preachy thread.

[WeAreTheCosmos]

(17-02-2013 01:15 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Regarding P.E.T.A.:

I was going to post the same thing.

I have a problem with vegans (ones I've met so far that is), but not vegetarians. Vegans tend to be idiots, vegetarians may just find it to suit their lifestyle. But, at this point in my life, I couldn't be a vegetarian. I require too much protein to supplement it with just whey or that expensive vegetable based protein crap. People will claim you can maintain a muscular physique (below 11% bodyfat, and over 24 BMI) and a serious exercise regime as a vegetarian... And I'm sure you can, with some level of success. However, its much easier with meat in the diet. Most vegetarians will either be lean AND skinny, somewhere in the middle, or fat... Really don't see many that are lean AND muscular (obviously I don't mean wiry, I mean above average weight)

However, I will recommend that any vegetarians (or anybody in general) should try quinoa. Nutritionally, its very well balanced, and provides all 9 essential aminos for protein. Beans only provide 7, and need to be paired with something like bread, which then adds unnecessary carbs. Seriously, if you haven't tried quinoa, do it. It cooks the same way as rice: 2-1 water to quinoa ratio, simmer covered for about 15 minutes. Tastes better than rice too.

[Zat]

Final words -- to summarize everything I said in this thread:

Vegetarians

We are the pariahs of this flesh-eating world:
hated, resented, ridiculed, reviled,
our very existence a threat
of maybe losing a steak or a bacon…
…the non-negotiable staple
of unimaginative minds.

They all know where meat comes from:
the barbaric cruelty of factory farms,
abattoirs, chicken-horror-chambers,
processing plants,
industrial fishing, special torture
for baby animals: goats, lambs, calves.

Oh, they love their science, technology:
computers and iPhones,
jet planes, boats, modern medicine,
but when it comes to their
most fundamental need: food
they insist on cruel, barbaric methods of the past.

The technology is there,
we can synthesize meat
in modern factories,
cheaper, cleaner,
without killing, cruelty, suffering
for living beings:
our animal friends,
we treat them as inanimate garbage
until we devour them
in fake-carnivore style.

Children love animals,
get misty eyed over kittens,
puppies, baby goats, little lambs,
not told what we do to them
where their burgers come from:
"Eat it dear, it comes from
your friendly neighborhood Mart"

They say:
it’s the natural way,
forgetting that we are unnatural
in every other way:
we fight nature
with our science and technology…
…not in nature but in cities
we stay.

We are the flesh-eating disease
of this animal world...
...not clean, innocent
as true carnivores are
who don’t have a choice…
…we, who evolved
with science and technology
left our brains behind
when it comes to
humane philosophy.

[TheBlackKnight]

The steaks are ready guys.

[DeepThought]

Quote:We are the pariahs of this flesh-eating world:
hated, resented, ridiculed, reviled,
our very existence a threat
of maybe losing a steak or a bacon…
…the non-negotiable staple
of unimaginative minds.

Stop making out like vegetarians are being persecuted, cos your not.



I understand the ethical argument for vegetarianism and everyone has the right to chose what they shove down their pie hole.

There are many other reasons to be vegetarian though I believe with the technology that is coming most of the arguments for vegetarianism will be rendered moot.

As our population grows producing meat in the was we do now is inefficient. Soon meat will be produced exclusively in factories using stem cell lines in controlled conditions. The muscles will be electro-stimulated to have the right tenderness. There will be no cruelty. Why grow a whole animal when you can just grow the part that you need?

This technology is currently being used to provide a fraction of the meat in some sausages right now. There are still some problems with taste and texture but we'll get there.

On the whole our reliance on growing and harvesting from animals will disappear.

Currently scientists are working on modifying genes in cotton to produce merino wool instead. No more need for sheep farming. Massive efficiency improvements.