Why I am a vegetarian....
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15-02-2013, 10:14 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 10:08 AM)Zat Wrote:  ...
I think we are in total agreement here, Bearded! Smile
Good. I was afraid I was going to have to drive to your house and slaughter a fungus on your doorstep to get my point across.

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15-02-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 10:14 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Good. I was afraid I was going to have to drive to your house and slaughter a fungus on your doorstep to get my point across.



[Image: hydnellum_peckii.jpg]

No idea what this is, but it's beautiful. Looks kinda tasty, too. Like it's raspberry-flavoured to something Blush

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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15-02-2013, 10:22 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 10:19 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 10:14 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Good. I was afraid I was going to have to drive to your house and slaughter a fungus on your doorstep to get my point across.



[Image: hydnellum_peckii.jpg]

No idea what this is, but it's beautiful. Looks kinda tasty, too. Like it's raspberry-flavoured to something Blush
It's the blood tooth fungus. Apparently inedible due to being so bitter tasting.

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15-02-2013, 10:24 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2013 10:29 AM by yakherder.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 10:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I understand the ethical dilemma that a lot of people face and why they might chose vegetarian or vegan diets as a way of taking a moral stance on the issue. I get that we draw arbitrary lines on what animals we like and won't kill and which ones we consider disposable, and that being cruel to and killing a cow/chicken/pig/etc is really no different than killing a cat/dog/hamster/etc. The only thing that gets me is that hetertrophic life has to take life in order to live. Whether that life is hetertrophic or autotrophic is still an arbitrary line. Where we decide that the life of plants is less valuable than the life of animals.

Don't get me wrong, if we start producing synthetic meat that is feasible (does not cost a fortune to manufacture en masse) and does not taste like shite, I will eat the shit out of it and leave behind the furry buffets to live.
I don't think the difference is so arbitrary. Empathy and the mirror neurons theoretically responsible for it, though its nature is not completely understood, is not made up. It's easier to empathize with another human, a mammal, or even a fish than it is to empathize with a banana. It does not, therefore, cause the average person emotional pain to dismember a banana.

I'm also all for the idea of killing out of necessity. I spent a significant portion of my childhood in remote parts of Alaska and was tasked to go catch dinner as young as 10. Clearly, living in a 50 person commercial fishing town with more moose than people and with no roads is quite different than living in a modern city with grocery stores full of numerous alternatives, so necessity is difficult to argue. I also spent most of my adult life in the military, so it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say that killing is inherently wrong regardless of the reason.

I also previously mentioned touring Mongolia, where some of the villages my friends and I came across had no reliable food source other than goats and the various products they could derive from the goats, namely milk and blood, and perhaps a small patch of herbs here and there to spice up their animal based cooking. Vegetarianism in that context would be impossible. Many of the children we came across had never even tried fruit before, having grown up after the collapse of the Soviet Union and, with it, the end of the trade routes that used to bring them such treats at affordable prices.

I'm not against the consumption of meat. The only stances I bother taking are my own and within the context of my own needs and perceptions. If someone wants to eat meat, great. We've all gotta live our own lives. I just don't find necessity to be a valid reason, at least within the context of the lives of most of the people making the argument.

Edit: I forgot to add a "not" in a place where it completely changes the meaning Tongue

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15-02-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 10:24 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 10:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I understand the ethical dilemma that a lot of people face and why they might chose vegetarian or vegan diets as a way of taking a moral stance on the issue. I get that we draw arbitrary lines on what animals we like and won't kill and which ones we consider disposable, and that being cruel to and killing a cow/chicken/pig/etc is really no different than killing a cat/dog/hamster/etc. The only thing that gets me is that hetertrophic life has to take life in order to live. Whether that life is hetertrophic or autotrophic is still an arbitrary line. Where we decide that the life of plants is less valuable than the life of animals.

Don't get me wrong, if we start producing synthetic meat that is feasible (does not cost a fortune to manufacture en masse) and does not taste like shite, I will eat the shit out of it and leave behind the furry buffets to live.
I don't think the difference is so arbitrary. Empathy and the mirror neurons theoretically responsible for it, though its nature is not completely understood, is not made up. It's easier to empathize with another human, a mammal, or even a fish than it is to empathize with a banana. It does not, therefore, cause the average person emotional pain to dismember a banana.

I'm also all for the idea of killing out of necessity. I spent a significant portion of my childhood in remote parts of Alaska and was tasked to go catch dinner as young as 10. Clearly, living in a 50 person commercial fishing town with no roads is quite different than living in a modern city with grocery stores full numerous alternatives, so necessity is difficult to argue. I also spent most of my adult life in the military, so it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say that killing is inherently wrong regardless of the reason.

I also previously mentioned touring Mongolia, where some of the villages my friends and I came across had no reliable food source other than goats and the various products they could derive from the goats, namely milk and blood, and perhaps a small patch of herbs here and there to spice up their animal based cooking. Vegetarianism in that context would be impossible. May of the children we came across had never even tried fruit before, having grown up after the collapse of the Soviet Union and, with it, the end of the trade routes that used to bring them such treats at affordable prices.

I'm against the consumption of meat. The only stances I bother taking are my own and within the context of my own needs and perceptions. If someone wants to eat meat, great. We've all gotta live our own lives. I just don't find necessity to be a valid reason, at least within the context of the lives of most of the people making the argument.
I don't disagree, but we could spend a good deal of time talking about why someone does not feel the same amount of empathy for eating meat as opposed to eating veggies. It should be noted that eating a banana or apple or indeed any fruit is not analogous to eating meat. Mainly because the fruiting bodies are generated by the plant for consumption and do not kill the plant. So, a better example would be harvesting wheat, but even then, you harvest it at the end of its growing cycle.

Would people have the same ethical dilemma if they had to kill an apple tree every time they wanted apples?

I'm not trying to be contrary or argue against eating meat or arguing out of the necessity context. But hetertrophs have to take life, and all life is related so...

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15-02-2013, 10:33 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 10:29 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  But hetertrophs have to take life, and all life is related so...
That's one statement you'll never hear me argue with. I do, however, have my "rules of engagement," so to speak Smile

I also accept the fact that the use of pesticides, in both organic and non-organic farming, is also responsible for a considerable amount of death. There is no perfectly humane place to draw the line. Too far in one direction and we starve to death. Too far in the other direction and we're cannibals. Exactly where each of us chooses to draw that line is, I suppose, indeed somewhat arbitrary. But we've still gotta pick a spot nonetheless.

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15-02-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 10:22 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It's the blood tooth fungus. Apparently inedible due to being so bitter tasting.
Beautiful and deadly... Mmm... [Image: love-060.gif]

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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15-02-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(15-02-2013 09:04 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I personally don't see vegetarianism as being superior.
...
Since the question of 'superior' was raised, I have to present my own answer as well.

When someone makes an ethical decision, from the available options, he or she will choose one that makes the most sense to him/her.

This obviously implies that the other options make less sense to him/her.

Obviously they disagree with each others' reasons and that is fine.

Our best friends are meat eaters. When they invite us for supper, they cook vegetarian meals and when they come to our place, they don't expect meat dishes (and are forever delighted by the new experience of tasty dishes they had never heard of before).

I hope this covers the "superiority" question. Smile
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15-02-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
I have no problem with your post and I didn't really see it as a rant. Smile

We're not vegetarians. But I do buy our meat from a butcher who buys only local -- I'm all for ALL local foods. I also have a close friend who's family owned a huge cattle ranch in Colorado.

My husband refuses tho to eat farmed fish.


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but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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15-02-2013, 10:46 AM
Re: Why I am a vegetarian....
Farmed fish another issue entirely just because they have nowhere near the nutritional value they would on their natural diets.

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