Why I am a vegetarian....
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16-02-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
Where's FZUMedia when we need him Angel

This would've have been "interesting".

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"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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16-02-2013, 08:14 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2013 08:18 PM by Zat.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(16-02-2013 07:36 PM)DerekS Wrote:  Does a lion feel guilt when he rips a gazelle apart and eat it? Is that not a bloody and cruel death?

The only difference between us and lions is that we are smart enough to breed our food. We kill them much cleaner than the lion as well.

Take a look at how 'cleanly' we treat them at: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-...ckens.aspx

I think they would prefer the lion -- and we are supposed to be more 'evolved' than the lion!

Disclaimer: I am NOT proselytizing -- I am only correcting misinformation.
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16-02-2013, 08:42 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
^Hasn't PETA been exposed for mistreating and killing animals? I just think the peta website is probably not considered reliable by many people, particularly non-vegetarians. I'd trust wikipedia a lot more than PETA.

Quote: I think they would prefer the lion -- and we are supposed to be more 'evolved' than the lion!
"Evolved" in the sense of suited to our own environment, I think the lion is perfectly suited in his own environment. This seems to be suggesting that evolution has a "perfect" goal and endpoint and a will of its own, and it does not. Animals (including humans) are more fit or less fit for their environment, and the less fit ones tend to have less reproductive success. I don't think you can compare the evolution of the lion to that of the human. I think you are probably talking in terms of self-awareness, but I wonder sometimes how much good that awareness has done us. But I suppose, that is the reason stated by many vegetarians when asked why they are vegetarian (the opinion that humans are far above the animals so they shouldn't kill/eat them), which fine, but I just have a problem with proselytizers of all shapes and forms (and I ran into many of these when I was in college).

Regarding the views of more militant vegetarians: I don't think it would work if everybody suddenly stopped eating meat. Wouldn't cities be overrun with animals? 100 car pileups with massive death tolls from deer and buffalo running across highways? Rotting animal carcasses everywhere because there would not be enough food for them all and they'd starve to death? There is no easy answer. All paths lead to death, one way or the other. Either people kill and eat animals, or animals starve to death because humans have taken over their natural environment and built Walmarts there. Stuff has to adapt, and we're not hunter/gatherers living in huts anymore, for the most part. It depends on the area, but you can't just release all the farm animals into the cities.

I think the militant vegan agenda is flawed because it seems to assume humans can eliminate all suffering from the world, and I think the best we could do would be to minimize suffering.
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16-02-2013, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2013 09:29 PM by Zat.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(16-02-2013 08:42 PM)amyb Wrote:  I just think the peta website is probably not considered reliable by many people, particularly non-vegetarians. I'd trust wikipedia a lot more than PETA.
...
I have been inside a chicken factory. I know what it looks like. The images on the site I linked to are realistic.

Quote: I think you are probably talking in terms of self-awareness, but I wonder sometimes how much good that awareness has done us.

I was talking from the point of view of a scientific-technological civilization that does not need to kill and eat animals. Experiments are under way, and successful methods worked out, to synthesize meat. It could be done a lot cheaper (if ALL costs are considered), on an industrial scale, than raising/caring for/killing animals. No cruelty involved. Of course it won't happen overnight and you are right: any sudden drastic change would lead to disaster. On the other hand, it has the same chance of happening soon as the alternative energy solution does: enormous vested interests fight it tooth and nail.

Links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat

"As of 2012, 30 laboratories from around the world have announced they're working on in vitro meat research.[22] Scientists have to make the product profitable for corporations in order for them to take this emerging technology into consideration. Finding an industrial process, rather than a scientific process, may make in vitro meat cheaper than conventional meat. Assuming that the proper materials are used and conditions remain ideal, two months of in vitro meat production could deliver up to 50,000 tons of meat from ten pork muscle cells"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/j...s-research

"Brown, a specialist in the genetics of cancer, is a tenured Stanford University molecular biologist, a member of the National Academy and the founder of a non-profit academic publisher. For two years, he has been working on creating synthesised meat and dairy products. "I have zero interest in making a new food just for vegans," Brown says. "I am making a food for people who are comfortable eating meat and who want to continue eating meat. I want to reduce the human footprint on this planet by 50%.""

Quote:I think the militant vegan agenda is flawed because it seems to assume humans can eliminate all suffering from the world, and I think the best we could do would be to minimize suffering.

Agreed. No sane person can expect to eliminate ALL suffering from the world. It is just plain silly. However, minimizing suffering should be under way by cleaning up practices by the food industry that treats living, feeling, suffering animals as pure garbage. Putting a stop to that kind of cruelty to animals (that most civilized nations have laws against) would be a good start.
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17-02-2013, 07:18 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(16-02-2013 05:39 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(16-02-2013 05:34 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  Have you seen an Indian? theyre all nuts and ribs....
...
Obviously, you haven't.

If you followed the link to educate yourself, you would have found that, as a few examples:

In Germany 9% of the population (7,380,000 people) are vegetarian
In France 1.5% of the total population called themselves vegetarians, although more recently this number has reportedly increased to 2%
In England 3% of respondents were found to be "completely vegetarian"

Do you think they are ALL nuts and ribs? Rolleyes

And yes, in India 20%–42% of the Indian population is vegetarian.
In Brazil 8% of the population, that is, 15.2 million people are vegetarians.

But it is true: very few vegetarians are grossly obese -- it is the healthiest diet, recommended by most health-related organizations.
India also possesses the highest prepubescent mortality rate in the world. Turns out not eating a cow because of your religious beliefs is ridiculous, isn't it?

Brazil? You mean a first world country? Sim, claro.

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17-02-2013, 07:20 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(16-02-2013 08:57 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(16-02-2013 08:42 PM)amyb Wrote:  I just think the peta website is probably not considered reliable by many people, particularly non-vegetarians. I'd trust wikipedia a lot more than PETA.
...
I have been inside a chicken factory. I know what it looks like. The images on the site I linked to are realistic.
I've been in one too, and it was not in a sorry state such as that.

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17-02-2013, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2013 08:09 AM by Zat.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(17-02-2013 07:18 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  India also possesses the highest prepubescent mortality rate in the world.
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Probably due to the 58-80% Indians who do it meat. Big Grin

(17-02-2013 07:20 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I've been in one too, and it was not in a sorry state such as that.

It was probably one of those posh, upper-scale retirement homes for chickens! Big Grin
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17-02-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(16-02-2013 06:49 PM)Zat Wrote:  For those of you who are health conscious, here is an article by "The American Society for Nutrition" on the relation between vegetarian diets and obesity, particularly as they relate to childhood obesity.

"The increased prevalence of childhood overweight and obesity is not unique to industrialized societies; dramatic increases are occurring in urbanized areas of developing countries. In light of the consensus that obesity is a significant public health concern and that many weight-loss interventions have been unsuccessful in the long term, an exploration of food patterns that are beneficial in the primary prevention of obesity is warranted."

Its conclusion: "Epidemiologic studies indicate that vegetarian diets are associated with a lower body mass index (BMI) and a lower prevalence of obesity in adults and children. "

See full article at: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/91/5/1525S.full

And a shocking statistical data: "Approximately 34% of the US adult population is obese, and 67% are overweight or obese on the basis of current clinical guidelines"
Vegetarians tend to be upper middle class to the rich...Standard of living is a huge factor. better health care, tend to exercise more, better social structures. Thats why studies on vegan diets arent reliable. There is no reliable studies of vegetarian diets because of this. Well obesity hits the middle class and the poor. Where standard of living is lower.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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17-02-2013, 10:11 AM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2013 10:33 AM by Zat.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
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ohmygod -- you quote it and then ignore it, never reading any of it I bet.

Why are you two so defensive and hostile?

No skin off your ass, nobody threatens your bacon! Huh

(17-02-2013 10:07 AM)StorMFront Wrote:  Vegetarians tend to be upper middle class to the rich...
...FYI -- we are pensioners, living below the poverty line.

All our vegetarian friends are poor.

...and, again, you ignore the world-wide statistics I linked to earlier.

Are you "knocking over the chess pieces and shitting on the board" -- again? Rolleyes

I am surprised you are not a christian too. You fit the profile. Big Grin
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17-02-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
...
OK, from now on I will ignore the trolling posts, but I will correct misinformation, as necessary, without repeating myself.

Once should have been enough.
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