Why I am a vegetarian....
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17-02-2013, 11:00 AM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(16-02-2013 07:40 PM)amyb Wrote:  
Quote: Just to confuse the issue more for me I absolutely hate hunting. Well I should clarify that....I hate hunting for sport. Hunting for nessecity I have no problem with. Killing something "cause its super fun" to me says a lot about a persons character.
I think this is a separate issue than factory farming. Here in PA there's a lot of deer hunting, and if they didn't control the population that way they would either (1) slowly, painfully starve to death because the population exceeds the carrying capacity of the land, or (2) wander out on roads, killing themselves and cars full of humans. The phenomenon of hunting is not just "for fun." I think it's a trade-off for living in modern society with cities and so on, there is simply not as much room for wild animals when everything is paved and full of Walmarts. I have venison steaks in my freezer right now (which my uncle gave me, I've never picked up a gun in my life).
See, it's funny, nature did a fine job of keeping populations in check before we started getting involved. Its because we feel we need to "control the population" that we got in this mess in the first place.

Maybe we should get our own population under control (but thats just a personal opinion of mine that I wont delve into further on here).


I'm glad that you've never met a hunter that hunted just for sport. Living in Oregon I know lots of people that hunt "just for fun" Even my own brother, sadly, is one of these people. The "thrill of the hunt" and all that.


Sorry for the interruption. The thread may return to arguing over peoples personal choices in diet now.

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." Soren Kierkegaard
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17-02-2013, 12:45 PM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2013 01:19 PM by StorMFront.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
Zat, Im not being defensive, it seems you are. lol

I dont care if you are vegan, Im really not taking this debate serious. I could careless about your diet, I was just having some fun with it. I will now take it serious if you like.

I read all your articles....now heres why I think they are not relevant.

My point was there is too many factors to consider in surveys like that. Those scientists dont use them as facts, they use them to form hypothesis if interesting results pop up. Its not proven science, until it is studied considering all the factors, its not relevant in my view or in science, as a theory.

If you want to take Indians as being relevant to your side of this debate...their life expectancy is 65.5 years old...well here in Canada its almost 80.8 years old, where we have very few vegetarians.

So my points are wealthy people are vegans (better social structures, quality of life, healhcare, etc.) You may be the exception but still doesnt matter, the majority are upper class of society are we find the most vegetarians. We have no alternatives to meat that makes sense for the masses. Farm factories are a necessity, we dont have enough grasslands to feed all the animals free ranged.

Morally/ethically, humans come before animals...just because I am human. As a Lacto-vegan, you ignore the fact that diary cows and chickens that dont produce are culled? I rather feed starving humans then worry about what a cow and chicken thinks. Like I said before, synthesized meat doesnt exist outside of a lab, so until it does it has no place in this debate. Shit, if a scientist could grow a T bone steak in a petri dish Id eat it.


Health wise, if you eat a sensible diet involving all the food groups is still the best way to live healthier. Lots more surveys and studies (if you think its surveys and studies are relevant) done on this then vegetarianism. The problem with western society is, we like our meat. We dont eat sensible diets.


We are evolved to eat meat, our teeth to the bacteria which lives in our digestive system prove this.

You said it was a choice to be a vegan, I say it isnt (which originally I believe this debate was about). You stated you like meat, yet made the choice to please your wife. So is it a choice of pleasing your wife or being a vegan?

Troll? maybe I am, its definitively not my objective but whatever.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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17-02-2013, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2013 01:03 PM by Zat.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
...
Your only comment on the cruelty issue was: "Unspeakable cruelty? its how things just are"

That covers it.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned, I have already dealt with everything you brought up.

I won't repeat myself.
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17-02-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(17-02-2013 12:56 PM)Zat Wrote:  ...
Your only comment on the cruelty issue was " Unspeakable cruelty? its how things just are"

That covers it.
Its true...Im not getting your point by posting that again?

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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17-02-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
A note on population control, with regard to deer and hunting:

Hunting is necessary for controlling deer populations, lest those deer suffer greatly from starvation. To say that humans shouldn't intervene with other species population control is both noble and kind. BUT stopping hunters from controlling excess populations IS NOT stopping population control. If we are to stop population control, we mist stop all practices which affect deer populations. This includes, but is not limited to:

- no more encroaching on habitat. That means no more expansion, and thus, limiting our own population.

- no more agriculture. Vast fields of wheat and corn are killing deer even as they feed them.

- no more controlling predators. Deers natural predators control populations much the same as we do. If we don't then we either let the population starve, or allow natural predators to take back the task. (and let's keep in mind we've all but eliminated predatory animals in most populated parts of the world.)

Hunters get a bad rap for "messing with the natural cycle", by hunting with the idea of population control as part of their motivation. But they aren't the ones messing with the system. We all are. By driving cars. By eating factory food. By clearing land for farming. By building houses. By growing our own population.

The population control done by hunters is necessary. They aren't messing with shit. They're compensating just a wee bit for shit that's already been messed with.

.......I write this as I eat my last mouthful of the best venison meatloaf on the planet. Wink

Just visiting.

-SR
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17-02-2013, 01:07 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(17-02-2013 01:03 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Hunters ..... aren't the ones messing with the system. We all are. By driving cars. By eating factory food. By clearing land for farming. By building houses. By growing our own population.
...
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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17-02-2013, 01:12 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
(17-02-2013 01:03 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  A note on population control, with regard to deer and hunting:

Hunting is necessary for controlling deer populations, lest those deer suffer greatly from starvation. To say that humans shouldn't intervene with other species population control is both noble and kind. BUT stopping hunters from controlling excess populations IS NOT stopping population control. If we are to stop population control, we mist stop all practices which affect deer populations. This includes, but is not limited to:

- no more encroaching on habitat. That means no more expansion, and thus, limiting our own population.

- no more agriculture. Vast fields of wheat and corn are killing deer even as they feed them.

- no more controlling predators. Deers natural predators control populations much the same as we do. If we don't then we either let the population starve, or allow natural predators to take back the task. (and let's keep in mind we've all but eliminated predatory animals in most populated parts of the world.)

Hunters get a bad rap for "messing with the natural cycle", by hunting with the idea of population control as part of their motivation. But they aren't the ones messing with the system. We all are. By driving cars. By eating factory food. By clearing land for farming. By building houses. By growing our own population.

The population control done by hunters is necessary. They aren't messing with shit. They're compensating just a wee bit for shit that's already been messed with.

.......I write this as I eat my last mouthful of the best venison meatloaf on the planet. Wink
Well I disagree, if we took humans out of the picture. Deer populations would increase, yet so would the predator animals. There would be a fluctuation in populations of prey to predators for a bit but it would equal out.

Now if we add humans back in, if we didnt kill the predators off like we did in our history. We wouldnt need to hunt.

Im not against hunting just point out that we arent needed to control populations or do we need to hunt.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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17-02-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
Regarding P.E.T.A.:



[Image: IcJnQOT.gif]
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17-02-2013, 01:58 PM
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
Needful Things


Rainforest’s being cut down?
I don’t wanna know.
I have a very busy life on the go -
need my burger, my gun and my wheels,
And my supersize mug full of jo.

Another school’s decimated?
The bleeding-heart on the news, he
Won’t in a thousand years disabuse me
of meat-eating, driving, caffeine
and my gorgeous, faithful, beloved Uzi

Tell me peons are starving?
Hell – let ‘em eat cake!
The things from me you will never take
are my gun, my coffee, my muscle-car
and my fat-streaked, undercooked steak.

Say the climate is changing?
Temperature’s up one degree!
Why should that even bother me?
Long as I have coffee, meat, a gun
And my four-wheel-drive SUV.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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17-02-2013, 02:18 PM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2013 08:05 PM by Zat.)
RE: Why I am a vegetarian....
...
One last try and then I am gone from this thread.

Many meat-lovers are also technically savvy, love their computers, their modern technology: space travel, airplanes, video games, even smart military technology, not mentioning their iPhones, Internet, texing, etc., etc., etc.

Yet, many of them insist on using pre-industrial-revolution technology and solutions when it comes to their most important need: food.

One would expect the same people to cry out for new scientific/industrial technologies, where healthier meat is manufactured in clean, modern factories, at a far lower cost (if everything is counted) than meat obtained from the "meat industry".

The 'meat-industry' that is obsolete, wasteful, cruel, barbaric, messy, inefficient.

The technology is already there, all it needs is support from the population and investment by the money-bags.

Of course, the media is not doing its job (with few exceptions) on informing the population, but it is no excuse for the technology-loving people on this and other forums who don't want to even think about it.

All the information is readily available on the Internet.

They want their stake, they want their bacon and can't imagine obtaining it from anywhere else than the torture chambers of the food industry.

I guess it must be due to lack of imagination and fear of change.

These two human attributes are the major obstacles in the path of real progress: alternative energy, alternative meat solutions, alternative social contracts.

And with this last post I believe I have said everything I want to say on this topic, and now I am gone to greener pastures.
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