Why I am me.
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10-02-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: Why I am me.
I suppose I can reply to the first two posts, seeing as they were the only relevant replies that added to the thread.

(09-02-2013 02:27 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Is there a label for the situation where "the parent has positive intentions of love and care and concern" but the child does not believe them?

Would this lead not to the realisation "that there's no one to know" and the "deep sense of emptiness" but still result in the mere observation of / detachment from anything other than the 'physical'?

In other words... being aware of this non-physical world but attaching no importance to it.

Consider

Well I am aware of the non-physical world, I don't know if I understand it much though. The description you give fits me rather well, but I do not think the cause you give for it is likely. If a parent expresses interest and love to the child then the child would probably be receptive to that unless it had trauma perhaps or a mental disability. In my case I think it relates to a lack of relationship/bonding with parents at young ages.

(09-02-2013 04:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I think you've already considered my kind of diagnosis.
More generally said, I have an extremely dominant left hemisphere, which means that only specific, concrete things have a meaning. A person is not concrete concept, people don't have a function. Unless of course they're wearing a uniform, sitting in an office and the meaning is clear from the label.

Right brain hemisphere scoops meaning from the senses with a bucket. It takes in everything, takes it broadly and a lot of it. All the vague but very profound and meaningful things like getting the gist of what the other person is thinking.

Left brain hemisphere is like a nitpicker with tweezers. It takes small, strictly defined things, one at a time and hardly in a linear way. It's like taking samples, but they must be solid, you can't scoop a fluid sea of conversation with tweezers.

The result is, that other people and social life are perceived as empty, meaningless, non-stimulating or way too overwhelming and confusing.
But it's a communication barrier, not an inability to feel it, but to receive and send it. Deep down we're normal, have normal needs and feelings, but we can only feel and communicate outwardly through this narrow gap that specific, concrete things get through. It is a form of blindness, essentially.

It is possible to get aware of the world of social meaning and its joys, but that leads to depression because it's like the suffering of Tantalos, reaching for what we can't have.

However, one person is fine to keep track of, to get familiar with his/her personality and orient in it like a blind person knows the layout of his home and where all the things are. Two more people at the same time are possible too, if there's a clear, concrete topic at hand. Three is a crowd and needs a schedule.

Consequently, alcohol is the magic brew. It does something to the brain, that gets the left hemisphere down from the throne for a while. The right hemisphere is for a moment free from the tyranny, free to perceive social meaning, free from the extreme demands on concreteness, free to react and express itself spontaneously and vaguely, to feel connection to all people around. It is a great sense of freedom, from something that we normally don't realize. If people would not be allowed anything vague, where we'd be? On the internet, of course! Expressing ourselves in a line of letters, orienting ourselves according to topics, not people, first making a topic before anyone can interact.

To be honest I won't take your word for anything you say about the brain Tongue

But yes, a big problem with people is that they are dynamic and unpredictable as opposed to other things like science which is understandable, logical and predictable. Subjects in science itself can be confusing, but nothing like people. I don't see it as being possible, to understand people, my brain just doesn't seem to work that way. It doesn't spend it's processing power determining peoples intentions and body language.

I see two sides to people.

The physical person, which includes the brains thought process', emotions, mental illness. These things I can grasp.
But when you bring up the other side, which relates mostly to relationships with people, making people feel better when down, helping people celebrate achievements, ect. These things make no sense to me.
I can understand others emotions to a point by relating them to my own, but I don't know how closely they relate. The lack of understanding with how to relate to people in this way is a factor in my social dysfunction.

When someone is upset around me, for example a girlfriend, it seems that they expect me to cheer them up somehow. What do people typically say in these situations? "Your a strong person, the person your mad at is stupid, don't worry about them" Just seems cliche and dumb. I get annoyed by stuff like that. I hate being fake and so usually the only times i come out of my shell, I am being the genuine me. I just wish I could be the genuine me all the time instead of the withdrawal. A lot of the time I want to say something but I don't, I worry excessively about if something will bug someone or not (more relevant in person), and this typically tends to me saying nothing or fucking up what I intended to say because of overthinking it. Hoping to see a psychiatrist soon.

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10-02-2013, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2013 01:32 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Why I am me.
(10-02-2013 10:27 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  To be honest I won't take your word for anything you say about the brain Tongue
You should! I've spent better part of the year listening to a hundred hours of podcasts, reading books and articles about the better part of the Autism spectrum disorders and related neurology. Smartass

(10-02-2013 10:27 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  But yes, a big problem with people is that they are dynamic and unpredictable as opposed to other things like science which is understandable, logical and predictable. Subjects in science itself can be confusing, but nothing like people. I don't see it as being possible, to understand people, my brain just doesn't seem to work that way. It doesn't spend it's processing power determining peoples intentions and body language.
On the contrary, your brain does spend resources on people, because it can't do otherwise. Otherwise there are dedicated circuits that figure out people and surroundings as we go. These circuits modulate our speech and bodily posture to convey signals of non-verbal meaning. And to receive them, of course. It's not easy to notice, but have you ever walked with a group of friends, or observed as they sit down in a pub or class? The smoothness as they hold formation and choose places? It's not rocket science, but it's fast, effortless, simultaneous, like a school of fish of a flock of birds.

With us, these dedicated brain circuits either don't work, or they interfere in the way of normal process. We're like computers that don't have graphic card, so we must run OpenGL on our CPU. And we don't have the network card either. We must spend our limited processing power on these tasks that in normal people are handled by specialized circuits. That slows us down in social situations and so we get tired quickly. We work best alone or in an environment with rules.

(10-02-2013 10:27 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I see two sides to people.

The physical person, which includes the brains thought process', emotions, mental illness. These things I can grasp.
But when you bring up the other side, which relates mostly to relationships with people, making people feel better when down, helping people celebrate achievements, ect. These things make no sense to me.
I can understand others emotions to a point by relating them to my own, but I don't know how closely they relate. The lack of understanding with how to relate to people in this way is a factor in my social dysfunction.
Yes, that's it. We can understand what can be put into words, as specific concepts and experiences. Or an emotional layout, snapshot of a person.
But when the life hits the Play button and that person comes into life in real time, we can't keep track of all the changing internal states, specially not with more people around. I am pretty sure that is a right hemisphere business and the right hemisphere does not do its job right.
However, some research says, and it is my experience as well, that there is such a thing as right hemisphere high functioning autism. It is actually much more common in women and I knew such a woman as well. In this state right hemisphere is dominant and such a person is dominated by her emotions, painfully feels all suffering of the world, near and far, small and big, imaginary and real.

(10-02-2013 10:27 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  When someone is upset around me, for example a girlfriend, it seems that they expect me to cheer them up somehow. What do people typically say in these situations? "Your a strong person, the person your mad at is stupid, don't worry about them" Just seems cliche and dumb. I get annoyed by stuff like that. I hate being fake and so usually the only times i come out of my shell, I am being the genuine me. I just wish I could be the genuine me all the time instead of the withdrawal. A lot of the time I want to say something but I don't, I worry excessively about if something will bug someone or not (more relevant in person), and this typically tends to me saying nothing or fucking up what I intended to say because of overthinking it. Hoping to see a psychiatrist soon.
From my study of relationship books I know, that they don't want you to cheer them up! Or worse, try to solve the problem. It's also not as important what you say, but in what tone of voice. You have to feel what she feels and modulate your tone of voice and gestures accordingly. A hug is probably in order at a right moment. Sadness shared is a sadness halved. You're supposed to take in your portion of sadness, make sympathetic noises, provide reassuring touch and at a right moment slip away and return with some sweet tea or coffee and some tissues. If you do it right, it will improve the bond between you and your girlfriend, which is a good investment into the future. That's my best theoretical understanding of the bad times. But so far I haven't learned the good times, what a couple is supposed to do to have fun together out there in the public.

We're overthinking things, because this is what the left hemisphere does, it either thinks or does nothing, one or zero. Thinking is a digital signal, the right-hemispheric feeling of emotions is analog. Most of the world, relationships and so on runs on analog signal. Analog is smooth, fluid, can be modulated and resonated... It does not transfer data, but maintains contact. All but the academic sphere and some workpaces run on the analog signal. You may feel analog, but if you can't receive and broadcast analog, you're like mute and it's not the real you.

When I put it like that, it's terrifying. Good luck with the doctor. Thumbsup You'll probably get to him sooner than I. If he diagnoses you with some bullshit like OCD or ADHD, protest and find another doctor.
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10-02-2013, 09:47 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(10-02-2013 01:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You should! I've spent better part of the year listening to a hundred hours of podcasts, reading books and articles about the better part of the Autism spectrum disorders and related neurology. Smartass

I'll pass. Cognitive Neurology is tied for my favorite subject, so I want reliable sources for the information I put in my head about it. Can't say I trust you to find reliable information, rather information that fits the scenario you like best.

(10-02-2013 01:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  On the contrary, your brain does spend resources on people, because it can't do otherwise. Otherwise there are dedicated circuits that figure out people and surroundings as we go. These circuits modulate our speech and bodily posture to convey signals of non-verbal meaning. And to receive them, of course. It's not easy to notice, but have you ever walked with a group of friends, or observed as they sit down in a pub or class? The smoothness as they hold formation and choose places? It's not rocket science, but it's fast, effortless, simultaneous, like a school of fish of a flock of birds.

With us, these dedicated brain circuits either don't work, or they interfere in the way of normal process. We're like computers that don't have graphic card, so we must run OpenGL on our CPU. And we don't have the network card either. We must spend our limited processing power on these tasks that in normal people are handled by specialized circuits. That slows us down in social situations and so we get tired quickly. We work best alone or in an environment with rules.

Yeah, possibly. Unconscious wiring that is responcible for picking up body/facial language just doesn't do it's job, so the conscious brain spends time trying to figure out what was once done unconsciously.

No idea what you said there.

(10-02-2013 01:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yes, that's it. We can understand what can be put into words, as specific concepts and experiences. Or an emotional layout, snapshot of a person.
But when the life hits the Play button and that person comes into life in real time, we can't keep track of all the changing internal states, specially not with more people around. I am pretty sure that is a right hemisphere business and the right hemisphere does not do its job right.

Yeah pretty much. I don't know where the problem is for sure, but I think it is in the left hemisphere. Speaking and listening and understading speach doesn't seem to come as naturally to me as other people, so I think there may be dyfunctional neurons in Broca's Area in the frontal lobe(responcible for speaking) and Wernickes Area in the temporal lobe(responcible for understanding spoken and written word.

(10-02-2013 01:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  When I put it like that, it's terrifying. Good luck with the doctor. Thumbsup You'll probably get to him sooner than I. If he diagnoses you with some bullshit like OCD or ADHD, protest and find another doctor.

I don't intend on getting a diagnosis, if the psychiatrist or whoever I see feels they can accurately diagnose me then fine. My main reason is just to talk to someone to see how crazy I am, with doctor-patient confidentiality of course so everyone doesn't know I'm that crazy Tongue

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10-02-2013, 10:00 PM
RE: Why I am me.
Aspchizo, have you ever done any research on the science behind empathy? It might be helpful in learning how to interact with others.
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10-02-2013, 10:09 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(10-02-2013 10:00 PM)PurpleChimp Wrote:  Aspchizo, have you ever done any research on the science behind empathy? It might be helpful in learning how to interact with others.
Well I can't say I have, but I don't lack empathy. It's difficult when I'm not sure if the other person is feeling how I think they are. I'm not blind to facial expressions, I can tell if someone’s happy or sad, usually can't tell if they are faking it, being sincere or not. I don't know. This stuffs hard to explain, most difficulty I have with words is when I have to talk about this stuff.

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10-02-2013, 10:19 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2013 10:37 PM by PurpleChimp.)
RE: Why I am me.
Let's double check. Try this quick test and see how you score:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/O...mpathy.jpg

I scored a 72.
If you score lower on the scale, you might want to investigate empathy a little farther. It has helped me become better at interacting with others since I started researching the topic. I am an organizer for an atheist group, and I knew that I would be coming across more than a few socially awkward people, so I put some effort into learning how to make them more comfortable. I ended up with a lot more insight into human interaction then I thought I would after reading more deeply into the subject of empathy.
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10-02-2013, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2013 01:10 AM by Adenosis.)
RE: Why I am me.
(10-02-2013 10:19 PM)PurpleChimp Wrote:  Let's double check. Try this quick test and see how you score:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/O...mpathy.jpg

I scored a 72.
If you score lower on the scale, you might want to investigate empathy a little farther. It has helped me become better at interacting with others since I started researching the topic. I am an organizer for an atheist group, and I knew that I would be coming across more than a few socially awkward people, so I put some effort into learning how to make them more comfortable. I ended up with a lot more insight into human interaction then I thought I would after reading more deeply into the subject of empathy.

I got 13, and interesting.

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11-02-2013, 07:18 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2013 07:28 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Why I am me.
(10-02-2013 09:47 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I'll pass. Cognitive Neurology is tied for my favorite subject, so I want reliable sources for the information I put in my head about it. Can't say I trust you to find reliable information, rather information that fits the scenario you like best.
If that was true, I'd pretend I don't have Asperger's and that I am an Indigo child.

(10-02-2013 09:47 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Yeah, possibly. Unconscious wiring that is responcible for picking up body/facial language just doesn't do it's job, so the conscious brain spends time trying to figure out what was once done unconsciously.

No idea what you said there.
Try to observe group mechanics or crowd mechanics. These people feel like a part of the group and act like it, don't miss a word while dodging cars and other groups, nobody gets mixed in, nobody trails behind...

(10-02-2013 09:47 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Yeah pretty much. I don't know where the problem is for sure, but I think it is in the left hemisphere. Speaking and listening and understading speach doesn't seem to come as naturally to me as other people, so I think there may be dyfunctional neurons in Broca's Area in the frontal lobe(responcible for speaking) and Wernickes Area in the temporal lobe(responcible for understanding spoken and written word.
Sounds like something individual, but still very much within Autism spectrum. Which means an umbrella of general developmental neurologic fucked-upness, which is mostly random, but goes along three lines:
- Qualitative impairment in social interaction
- Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests and activities
- The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning
+ No significant developmental language delay (but if it is, it should be HFA, not AS, though results later are practically the same)

(10-02-2013 09:47 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I don't intend on getting a diagnosis, if the psychiatrist or whoever I see feels they can accurately diagnose me then fine. My main reason is just to talk to someone to see how crazy I am, with doctor-patient confidentiality of course so everyone doesn't know I'm that crazy Tongue
You're not crazy, your behavior is normal for how your brain is wired Drinking Beverage The true question is, do you wish to have empathy? Are you sad if you realize you might be more helpful in a past situation but you weren't? Will you try to show more helpfulness in the same situation once you know what to look for? If yes, then you have empathy, you're just impaired in the social communication area and that has nothing to do with your sanity.

There are so many people of high functioning end of Autism spectrum everywhere, and yet this is a relatively "new" diagnosis. (1990's) Only the society got much more friendly to us, due to the nerd revolution of digital technologies in daily life. This does not fit the definition of insanity, rather just like we have a spectrum of genetic sexual preferences, there is a spectrum of neurodiversity. You're not mentally unstable, you are stable in a different way. If a doctor doesn't acknowledge this, he should return his diploma.
Unless of course you have some comorbid conditions, which are common.
But tiptoeing around with craziness, lack of empathy, introversion and so on, that's just beating around the bush, not addressing the core cause of permanent, congenital different brain wiring and function, strongly genetic.

I suggest you take this quiz, people on this forum had good results with it. And it's automatic evaluation, putting out a graph of how you're rounded-out.
http://rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php
My score was IIRC 127 on the AS side, 77 on the neurotypical abilities.
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11-02-2013, 07:22 AM
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 07:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(10-02-2013 09:47 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I'll pass. Cognitive Neurology is tied for my favorite subject, so I want reliable sources for the information I put in my head about it. Can't say I trust you to find reliable information, rather information that fits the scenario you like best.
If that was true, I'd pretend I don't have Asperger's and that I am an Indigo child.

Hahahahahahaha. Indigo child. Laughat

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-02-2013, 07:36 AM
RE: Why I am me.
(10-02-2013 10:45 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(10-02-2013 10:19 PM)PurpleChimp Wrote:  Let's double check. Try this quick test and see how you score:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/O...mpathy.jpg

I scored a 72.
If you score lower on the scale, you might want to investigate empathy a little farther. It has helped me become better at interacting with others since I started researching the topic. I am an organizer for an atheist group, and I knew that I would be coming across more than a few socially awkward people, so I put some effort into learning how to make them more comfortable. I ended up with a lot more insight into human interaction then I thought I would after reading more deeply into the subject of empathy.

I got 13, and interesting.

Ha!

Beatcha!

I got 14.

Howdyalike them apples.

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