Why I am me.
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11-02-2013, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2013 01:10 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 07:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I'll pass. Cognitive Neurology is tied for my favorite subject, so I want reliable sources for the information I put in my head about it. Can't say I trust you to find reliable information, rather information that fits the scenario you like best.
If that was true, I'd pretend I don't have Asperger's and that I am an Indigo child. [/quote]

To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if you thought of yourself as one of them.

(11-02-2013 07:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Sounds like something individual, but still very much within Autism spectrum. Which means an umbrella of general developmental neurologic fucked-upness, which is mostly random, but goes along three lines:
- Qualitative impairment in social interaction
- Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests and activities
- The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning
+ No significant developmental language delay (but if it is, it should be HFA, not AS, though results later are practically the same)

Yes, I am quite aware of the main traits of AS. I did mention I researched it for days on end when I was sure I had it?

(11-02-2013 07:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  You're not crazy, your behavior is normal for how your brain is wired Drinking Beverage The true question is, do you wish to have empathy? Are you sad if you realize you might be more helpful in a past situation but you weren't? Will you try to show more helpfulness in the same situation once you know what to look for? If yes, then you have empathy, you're just impaired in the social communication area and that has nothing to do with your sanity.


Crazy compared to other people. I don't know if crazy is the word they would use, maybe just strange. Be more helpful in past situation? for what? I just need to be around people that aren't such drama queens. I feel like a sensitive guy, but other peoples emotions can tend to get irritating, i guess that sounds cold. I just don't know how to deal with other peoples emotions a lot of the time. I don't know if I'm interested in learning at all.

(11-02-2013 07:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I suggest you take this quiz, people on this forum had good results with it. And it's automatic evaluation, putting out a graph of how you're rounded-out.
http://rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php
My score was IIRC 127 on the AS side, 77 on the neurotypical abilities.

I got...

Your Aspie score: 137 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 56 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie

I think I took version 1 of that test before, I had gotten something like 158 on Aspie score.

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11-02-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 12:56 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  ...
You are very likely an Aspie
...

Welcome to the club.

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11-02-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 12:59 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 12:56 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  ...
You are very likely an Aspie
...

Welcome to the club.

Thumbsup
Thanks for the belated welcome. This is just one multiple choice test though. Not much of a diagnosis, however I have felt ever since researching Aspergers that I fit the diagnosis nicely.

I went to a psychiatrist back in November of 2012 and he told me it was social anxiety because individuals with Aspergers do not get nervous, anxious or fear social situations. Which contradicted the information I had since gotten from all the diagnosed individuals I had spoken to. I'm guessing he didn't actually have any AS patients and he probably wanted to give me a prescription.

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11-02-2013, 03:39 PM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2013 03:47 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 12:56 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 12:56 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 07:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  If that was true, I'd pretend I don't have Asperger's and that I am an Indigo child.
To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if you thought of yourself as one of them.
How could I, if I don't know what it is? Nobody knows. Not even geneticists. Science is my rock of ages, it trumps even experience. If science says something positively, I take it. I don't have any blue-glowing DNA, I have a brain disorder. The problem is I move in areas with so little scientific data, that I have to go by experience or suspend my judgement. That doesn't mean I'm against science, only that it's not always there when I need it and I see it as an opportunity to investigate personally. I don't have god of the gaps, I have a hobby of the gaps.

(11-02-2013 12:56 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Yes, I am quite aware of the main traits of AS. I did mention I researched it for days on end when I was sure I had it?
Not any time recently, I don't remember.

(11-02-2013 12:56 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Crazy compared to other people. I don't know if crazy is the word they would use, maybe just strange. Be more helpful in past situation? for what? I just need to be around people that aren't such drama queens. I feel like a sensitive guy, but other peoples emotions can tend to get irritating, i guess that sounds cold. I just don't know how to deal with other peoples emotions a lot of the time. I don't know if I'm interested in learning at all.
Well, that complicates your situation a bit. It's easier if you want to learn how to get along with people more. There's no cure but social training right now. But again, it took me some really bad times to make that decision.
What you say may be a normal personality variation, that people have regardless of their brain. For example my older brother is a jerk, hates his family for no reason and is extremely rude to us, yet he probably has no possible diagnosis.
Other people's emotions may be irritating, I can understand that a little. They don't bother me that much, what bothers me is how vague they are when hanging out. Doing nothing in particular, nothing I could focus on. Talking about everything and nothing.

So why don't you go instantly for the Asperger's diagnosis, are there any signs that don't fit?
Did you have a language delay? Are you good at team sports? Got no sensory problems at all? Is your voice completely normal?

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11-02-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 03:39 PM)Luminon Wrote:  How could I, if I don't know what it is? Nobody knows. Not even geneticists. Science is my rock of ages, it trumps even experience. If science says something positively, I take it. I don't have any blue-glowing DNA, I have a brain disorder. The problem is I move in areas with so little scientific data, that I have to go by experience or suspend my judgement. That doesn't mean I'm against science, only that it's not always there when I need it and I see it as an opportunity to investigate personally. I don't have god of the gaps, I have a hobby of the gaps.

Nobody knows, just like with chakras, all there is in this area is opinions. You mean areas with no scientific data and evidence. How is a hobby of the gaps any different? It's putting ideas and beliefs into unknown gaps and assuming them to be true even without supporting evidence. Like your belief about the chakras, you think they are real, yet have no evidence.

(11-02-2013 03:39 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 12:56 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Crazy compared to other people. I don't know if crazy is the word they would use, maybe just strange. Be more helpful in past situation? for what? I just need to be around people that aren't such drama queens. I feel like a sensitive guy, but other peoples emotions can tend to get irritating, i guess that sounds cold. I just don't know how to deal with other peoples emotions a lot of the time. I don't know if I'm interested in learning at all.
Well, that complicates your situation a bit. It's easier if you want to learn how to get along with people more. There's no cure but social training right now. But again, it took me some really bad times to make that decision.
What you say may be a normal personality variation, that people have regardless of their brain. For example my older brother is a jerk, hates his family for no reason and is extremely rude to us, yet he probably has no possible diagnosis.
Other people's emotions may be irritating, I can understand that a little. They don't bother me that much, what bothers me is how vague they are when hanging out. Doing nothing in particular, nothing I could focus on. Talking about everything and nothing.

So why don't you go instantly for the Asperger's diagnosis, are there any signs that don't fit?
Did you have a language delay? Are you good at team sports? Got no sensory problems at all? Is your voice completely normal?

Who we are is a result of the brain, so there are no personality disorders that has nothing to do with the brain. It may be the result of genes or experience.

Are you aware of DSM-5? (I think that's what it's called). Aspergers is no longer a diagnosis. Also what good does a piece of paper with a diagnosis on it do me? It won't fix anything.

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11-02-2013, 04:39 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 03:55 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Nobody knows, just like with chakras, all there is in this area is opinions. You mean areas with no scientific data and evidence. How is a hobby of the gaps any different? It's putting ideas and beliefs into unknown gaps and assuming them to be true even without supporting evidence. Like your belief about the chakras, you think they are real, yet have no evidence.
I don't know what I think or what I'm supposed to think. It's not objective evidence, but it's a very vivid and intense daily experience. I don't think many scientists ever found themselves in such a strange yet compelling situation. It's certainly something that can't be ignored. What am I allowed to investigate, what am I allowed to think and do, to be still considered a rational person? Could it possibly be that I am completely rational in my situation, but other people are unable to appreciate that?

(11-02-2013 03:55 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Are you aware of DSM-5? (I think that's what it's called). Aspergers is no longer a diagnosis. Also what good does a piece of paper with a diagnosis on it do me? It won't fix anything.
Yes, I'm aware of DSM 5 and every time I heard it mentioned on the podcasts, they cursed it left and right, experts, authors, patients, everyone.
I think it's not enough to judge the spectrum as mild, moderate or severe. It should be judged by what abilities are impaired and how much. For example, Asperger's syndrome is not a mild case of autism, it is a restricted case of autism. And the areas that are impaired, may be mild, moderate or severe. For example I have a little problem remembering names and faces, but it could as well be anywhere up to not being able to remember and recognize a face at all, or not being able to recognize moods on the faces. I'd have to carry a small book of cards with emoticons - simplified faces, to recognize what people feel. I wouldn't call that a "mild" impairment. I heard it's as severe as being blind or missing both legs.
So yes, autism spectrum is really two-dimensional. The various disorders of DSM 4 served to put there the other dimension. AFAIK, DSM 5 has no such thing.

(11-02-2013 01:04 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I went to a psychiatrist back in November of 2012 and he told me it was social anxiety because individuals with Aspergers do not get nervous, anxious or fear social situations. Which contradicted the information I had since gotten from all the diagnosed individuals I had spoken to. I'm guessing he didn't actually have any AS patients and he probably wanted to give me a prescription.
AS is still a "new" diagnosis, doctors aren't familiar with it. In 1990's, it was diagnosed 1 in 10,000 children. Now it's up to 1 in 88. But the doctors didn't yet catch up with situation and new research methods, they still think it's something rare and they'll try to slap on you any diagnosis except the most obvious. In my country there are just a couple of experts (per 10 million people) and the waiting times are months at least, sometimes over a year. I heard in France some doctors still peddle the "refrigerator mother" theory that has been long since disproven. So yes, this is one of the few areas where you can actually be more competent than your doctor, unfortunately.

The most typical case is, the doctor asks the patient, "Do you hear voices?" The literally-minded aspie thinks, 'Well duh, what a dumb question! Of course I hear voices, my hearing is all right. I hear your voice, I hear voices at the waiting room, so...' "...Yes doctor, I do hear voices." And the doctor writes down a schizophrenia diagnosis. Lots of people have been diagnosed that way in the past. The author Jessica Kingsley too, I think.

Asperger's is very much so about social anxiety and worrying in general. We get obsessive about everything, even about anxiety. Due to our brain we experience much more confusion, anxiety, worries, misunderstanding and conflict that the stress is consequently higher. People like us don't need to take any meds for the disorder itself, but the social stress and anxiety may be so frequent, that they take sedatives just for that.

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11-02-2013, 05:14 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 04:39 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I don't know what I think or what I'm supposed to think. It's not objective evidence, but it's a very vivid and intense daily experience. I don't think many scientists ever found themselves in such a strange yet compelling situation. It's certainly something that can't be ignored. What am I allowed to investigate, what am I allowed to think and do, to be still considered a rational person? Could it possibly be that I am completely rational in my situation, but other people are unable to appreciate that?

Then you should make your way into physics courses at a university, and try to devise experiments on your subjective experience after graduating. Someone that cares about the objective truth would have to find objective evidence to be rational. My guess is that you'd peel off the beliefs after being in the course for awhile.

(11-02-2013 04:39 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yes, I'm aware of DSM 5 and every time I heard it mentioned on the podcasts, they cursed it left and right, experts, authors, patients, everyone.
I think it's not enough to judge the spectrum as mild, moderate or severe. It should be judged by what abilities are impaired and how much. For example, Asperger's syndrome is not a mild case of autism, it is a restricted case of autism. And the areas that are impaired, may be mild, moderate or severe. For example I have a little problem remembering names and faces, but it could as well be anywhere up to not being able to remember and recognize a face at all, or not being able to recognize moods on the faces. I'd have to carry a small book of cards with emoticons - simplified faces, to recognize what people feel. I wouldn't call that a "mild" impairment. I heard it's as severe as being blind or missing both legs.
So yes, autism spectrum is really two-dimensional. The various disorders of DSM 4 served to put there the other dimension. AFAIK, DSM 5 has no such thing.

I don't think that is as bad as being blind or missing both legs, I would prefer that situation the other two. I don't agree with the DSM-5 changes either.

(11-02-2013 04:39 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The most typical case is, the doctor asks the patient, "Do you hear voices?" The literally-minded aspie thinks, 'Well duh, what a dumb question! Of course I hear voices, my hearing is all right. I hear your voice, I hear voices at the waiting room, so...' "...Yes doctor, I do hear voices." And the doctor writes down a schizophrenia diagnosis. Lots of people have been diagnosed that way in the past. The author Jessica Kingsley too, I think.

Asperger's is very much so about social anxiety and worrying in general. We get obsessive about everything, even about anxiety. Due to our brain we experience much more confusion, anxiety, worries, misunderstanding and conflict that the stress is consequently higher. People like us don't need to take any meds for the disorder itself, but the social stress and anxiety may be so frequent, that they take sedatives just for that.

I can't imagine a doctor being dense enough to know he was giving the question a literal answer. If such doctors do exist then I would question their education. I've tried my fair share of medications, better off without them for long term. Yeah that's a similar answer to what I got from other Aspies, obsessive anxiety.

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12-02-2013, 06:14 AM
RE: Why I am me.
(11-02-2013 05:14 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Then you should make your way into physics courses at a university, and try to devise experiments on your subjective experience after graduating. Someone that cares about the objective truth would have to find objective evidence to be rational. My guess is that you'd peel off the beliefs after being in the course for awhile.
Beliefs don't matter. What is important, is the perception. I do not think it will ever go away, no matter what I think or what I study. On the contrary, I'd say it grew on me over the years. So I've got rather little to peel off. All right, let's say it's not chakras. What is it, then? If it quacks like a duck...
And why exactly should I study physics? I might as well study neurology and that's a whole different subject! I care about the truth and I'm curious, but there are things that I care more about. I care about the world, the nation, the economy, society and social conditions. I think my help in these areas is direly needed. I don't want to bury myself in a laboratory (as much as I'd like) and watch how the ecology and economy goes to shit, how people hate their politicians and their lives and how the politicians steal the money that were my research funding and fly away to Bahamas. There are all kinds of crisis in Europe and the world and I want to be a part of the solution, part of something greater than just my curiosity about one scientific phenomenon. Maybe later, maybe as a hobby, a side project... If that means I'll be clueless in the scientific area, that I'll get some well-deserved tongue-lashing and brow-beating on the forum, I suppose that can't be avoided. So the question is, can I call myself rational, if I only get to do something about my object of curiosity only once a year or so? Is my four year study of public administration and all kinds of humanistic sciences an elaborate ruse to avoid revising my beliefs that collide with natural sciences?
I guess that's what I will ask the doctor. All things considered, am I rational? I am just writing the two-section introductory document that she told me to write. The first section deals with my life. The second one with the sensory peculiarities.

(11-02-2013 05:14 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I don't think that is as bad as being blind or missing both legs, I would prefer that situation the other two.
OK, tell me, what was your life until now? All good? How did you feel, were you happy about your life? Did you have a lot of friends and fun?
Or was it rather unpleasant, did you have a lot of conflicts and misunderstandings, the same things over and over again? What if you were blind, but nobody told you? What if you bumped into things and nobody told you that you need a white stick and a trained dog? What if you look so normal, that the people around don't see what's wrong with you and think that you chose to ignore and overlook them, because you think lowly about them?
All things considered, blind and legless people know where are their limits and everyone can see what's wrong with them and doesn't take it personally. They can avoid a lot of mistakes, they can feel and communicate normally. I'd say there is something about that idea and I don't like it at all. Not a bit.

(11-02-2013 05:14 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I can't imagine a doctor being dense enough to know he was giving the question a literal answer. If such doctors do exist then I would question their education. I've tried my fair share of medications, better off without them for long term. Yeah that's a similar answer to what I got from other Aspies, obsessive anxiety.
Well, doctors may not realize that Aspie mind is a literal mind. A mind that is used to things not making sense. Of course the doctor's question is vague and open and depends on something that the doctor has in mind, which is a huge mistake. If some patients may be unable to handle such vague questions, the doctor shouldn't ask them.

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12-02-2013, 07:32 PM
RE: Why I am me.
(12-02-2013 06:14 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Beliefs don't matter. What is important, is the perception. I do not think it will ever go away, no matter what I think or what I study. On the contrary, I'd say it grew on me over the years. So I've got rather little to peel off. All right, let's say it's not chakras. What is it, then? If it quacks like a duck...

You seem to be under the impresion that beliefs have no effect on our perception. If by duck, you mean hallucinatory sense of touch, then yes, it quacks like a duck. Smile

(12-02-2013 06:14 AM)Luminon Wrote:  And why exactly should I study physics? I might as well study neurology and that's a whole different subject! I care about the truth and I'm curious, but there are things that I care more about. I care about the world, the nation, the economy, society and social conditions. I think my help in these areas is direly needed. I don't want to bury myself in a laboratory (as much as I'd like) and watch how the ecology and economy goes to shit, how people hate their politicians and their lives and how the politicians steal the money that were my research funding and fly away to Bahamas. There are all kinds of crisis in Europe and the world and I want to be a part of the solution, part of something greater than just my curiosity about one scientific phenomenon. Maybe later, maybe as a hobby, a side project... If that means I'll be clueless in the scientific area, that I'll get some well-deserved tongue-lashing and brow-beating on the forum, I suppose that can't be avoided. So the question is, can I call myself rational, if I only get to do something about my object of curiosity only once a year or so? Is my four year study of public administration and all kinds of humanistic sciences an elaborate ruse to avoid revising my beliefs that collide with natural sciences?
I guess that's what I will ask the doctor. All things considered, am I rational? I am just writing the two-section introductory document that she told me to write. The first section deals with my life. The second one with the sensory peculiarities.

I wouldn't call you rational, you have a belief that contradicts with what appears to be the objective reality all because of personal experience. Physics or Neurology, it doesn't matter. If you were actually getting in to a field in science you might realize your standards for evidence are really low. Also it doesn't have to be with you forever. This alternative might not be your favourite choice, but they could possibly pin point where the interference is coming from and remove that part of the brain while under awake brain surgery. I don't know if that would be worth it, but at least you wouldn't be confused about the nature of reality for your whole life.

(12-02-2013 06:14 AM)Luminon Wrote:  OK, tell me, what was your life until now? All good? How did you feel, were you happy about your life? Did you have a lot of friends and fun?
Or was it rather unpleasant, did you have a lot of conflicts and misunderstandings, the same things over and over again? What if you were blind, but nobody told you? What if you bumped into things and nobody told you that you need a white stick and a trained dog? What if you look so normal, that the people around don't see what's wrong with you and think that you chose to ignore and overlook them, because you think lowly about them?
All things considered, blind and legless people know where are their limits and everyone can see what's wrong with them and doesn't take it personally. They can avoid a lot of mistakes, they can feel and communicate normally. I'd say there is something about that idea and I don't like it at all. Not a bit.

Life hasn't been all that great, it would be worse if I had no legs or if I was blind. With the exception of being born without the legs, as opposed to losing them at some point. If I never had them I wouldn't know what I would be missing and I would have benefits and all kinds of crap. Not to mention I'd have more time to sit and read/research stuff.

What I bolded is a good explanation of how I am. Just normal enough for people not to think anything is necissarily wrong, but enough to think I'm weird as shit.

(12-02-2013 06:14 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, doctors may not realize that Aspie mind is a literal mind. A mind that is used to things not making sense. Of course the doctor's question is vague and open and depends on something that the doctor has in mind, which is a huge mistake. If some patients may be unable to handle such vague questions, the doctor shouldn't ask them.

Well that doctor clearly needs to go back to school, doctors should have a general understanding of all diagnosis'.

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13-02-2013, 04:51 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2013 04:55 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Why I am me.
(12-02-2013 07:32 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  You seem to be under the impresion that beliefs have no effect on our perception. If by duck, you mean hallucinatory sense of touch, then yes, it quacks like a duck. Smile
Yes, that's exactly the point. I believe that during all these years I had an ample opportunity to observe things whether I knew/expected/believed in them or not. Therefore, I think I know how much of my perception is variable based on beliefs and that I can compensate for that. One way to get around that is to appreciate the unexpected and disregard things I'd expect as inconclusive.

(12-02-2013 07:32 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Physics or Neurology, it doesn't matter. If you were actually getting in to a field in science you might realize your standards for evidence are really low. Also it doesn't have to be with you forever. This alternative might not be your favourite choice, but they could possibly pin point where the interference is coming from and remove that part of the brain while under awake brain surgery. I don't know if that would be worth it, but at least you wouldn't be confused about the nature of reality for your whole life.
Well, if I'd be politically correct, I'd be really offended right now. But I'm not. Nevermind that it doesn't actually cause me much trouble and may be sometimes very pleasant. Nevermind that it also allows me to make unexpected observations.

Tell me, what is wrong about being confused about the nature of reality? I am not confused about the small scientifically known part of reality, I get that. I am confused about the other 95 %. The guy who wanted to close down the patent office just before the Relativity theory, X-rays and so on, he was pretty sure of himself. And even the guy who came up with Relativity did not have the balls to accept quantum mechanics. I'd say confusion is a natural and necessary part of science.

You suggested, that neurologically removing my perception would change anything. Nope. It would do nothing about the actual reality (whatever it is) and also it would do nothing about lifetime memories of my observations. I'd say it makes as much sense as breaking Galileo's telescope because he saw weird things through it and got confused about the nature of reality.


I think you are confused about the nature of rationality. It is essentially a philosophic disagreement. You're used to seeing the results of rationality in special circumstances, so you don't realize what does it mean objectively, under any circumstances.
Therefore, I have to ask you:
Scientific method produces consensus (agreement).
Does rationality necessarily mean agreement?
Does agreement necessarily mean rationality?
Are there any circumstances that can make the result different while remaining rational?

Objective scientific evidence creates the obligation for all rational people to believe it entirely.
Can different evidence vary in scope, are there any lesser forms of evidence that create the obligation for fewer rational people and/or to believe it to a lesser degree?

(12-02-2013 07:32 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Life hasn't been all that great, it would be worse if I had no legs or if I was blind. With the exception of being born without the legs, as opposed to losing them at some point. If I never had them I wouldn't know what I would be missing and I would have benefits and all kinds of crap. Not to mention I'd have more time to sit and read/research stuff.

What I bolded is a good explanation of how I am. Just normal enough for people not to think anything is necissarily wrong, but enough to think I'm weird as shit.
Well, do you mind that enough to try to do something about that? Some kind of training or schooling?

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