Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
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11-11-2010, 07:55 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
Hi Unbeliever

Unbeliever Wrote:No. Atheism is a defined item: lack of belief in gods. Its logical status is unaffected by the other beliefs that atheists hold - they don't have anything to do with atheism. That belief is illogical. Atheism itself is not.

But this is a red herring. You said that theists flat-out do not claim that God exists:
No I did not. I said the religion doesn't claim that God exists. Just like those illogical atheists, there are likewise: illogical theists.

Yes theist's do make illogical claims.

Theism isn't illogical in the same way that atheism isn't.

Religion isn't the sum of beliefs which contradicts it, in the same way that atheism isn't anything other than what defines it. The religious ≠ the religion just like atheists ≠ atheism - or you're going down a very slippery slope, and one in which I can start attributing everything an atheist might say and add it to the simple definition any theist will be batted about the head for deviating from - do you get my point?

---

The Salvation Army IS a church!! Big Grin
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11-11-2010, 08:03 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(11-11-2010 07:55 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  
Unbeliever Wrote:No. Atheism is a defined item: lack of belief in gods. Its logical status is unaffected by the other beliefs that atheists hold - they don't have anything to do with atheism. That belief is illogical. Atheism itself is not.

But this is a red herring. You said that theists flat-out do not claim that God exists:
No I did not. I said the religion doesn't claim that God exists.

Then I misunderstood you, and I apologize. But, as I said later in my post, even if you do mean that, it's still wrong.

Take, for example, 2 Cor. 4:3-. It seems pretty obvious that it's saying that they know they are correct, not just believe that they are. It even says "we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself".

Quote:The Salvation Army IS a church!! Big Grin

Is it? I didn't know that.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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12-11-2010, 03:03 AM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(11-11-2010 08:03 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  it's still wrong.

Take, for example, 2 Cor. 4:3-. It seems pretty obvious that it's saying that they know they are correct, not just believe that they are. It even says "we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself".
The preceding text from that translation:-

It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak,

...there's the explanation of what's meant by belief: that it's by faith. We know by faith.
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12-11-2010, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2010 09:59 AM by Unbeliever.)
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(12-11-2010 03:03 AM)fr0d0 Wrote:  The preceding text from that translation:-

It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak,

...there's the explanation of what's meant by belief: that it's by faith. We know by faith.

Which is what I'm talking about. You claim to know. Even though you don't claim logical support for your beliefs (at least, I think you don't), you claim to know that they are true, because you believe.

And your interpretation of the Bible is not necessarily the same as anyone else's. There are so many translations of the Bible, and so many passages, and so many authors, and so many possible interpretations that you can find a passage in there to support nearly anyone's point of view on nearly any subject. While you take this passage to mean one thing, others can and do take it to mean other things. You might think that your interpretation is the right one, but that doesn't change the fact that others think that they are right, and (due to above circumstances regarding the Bible) they have just as much Biblical support as you do.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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12-11-2010, 10:48 AM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
You're agreeing that 'to know by faith' is completely different to what a non believer would mean by the term 'know'. There's the rub.

It's a common misconception that Christians all have fundamentally disparate interpretations of the bible, this simply isn't so. Mainstream Christianity has a set core of beliefs that everyone adheres to, based upon a certain version of the Nicene Creed. Some aspects of the faith are hotly debated it's true, none of the core beliefs are though.
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12-11-2010, 03:10 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
First of all knowing is different from truth.

"No amount of belief makes something a fact" The Amazing Randi

I can "know" by faith alone that unicorns exist. I can say that the unicorns telepathically speak with me every day and I am required to bow down every day to their direction in the North pole and pray to them because the unicorns gave me a special book that I may share their message and know what to do to appease them. Of course we can't see them because they are invisible to non believers.

It doesn't make any of it truth. I can "know" something all I want but the burden is on me to prove it has a truth. "knowing by faith" is just an admission that knowledge by any other means is not possible. In other words it means it's false.

Secondly besides Christ as lord can you name even one other aspect or ritual of Christianity that is not hotly contested within the religion. There are over 3000 sects of Christianity for a reason. It's the exception rather then the rule for Christians to agree about anything in regards to Yahweh.
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12-11-2010, 08:30 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(12-11-2010 03:10 PM)Godless Wrote:  "knowing by faith" is just an admission that knowledge by any other means is not possible. In other words it means it's false.
Factually incorrect. It's false according to the scientific method, which is inapplicable.

(12-11-2010 03:10 PM)Godless Wrote:  Secondly besides Christ as lord can you name even one other aspect or ritual of Christianity that is not hotly contested within the religion. There are over 3000 sects of Christianity for a reason. It's the exception rather then the rule for Christians to agree about anything in regards to Yahweh.
I can name a whole creed full: (sorry no hide tag for those easily offended Wink)

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
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12-11-2010, 08:45 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
We believe in one God,
1. the Father
2. the Son
3. the holy ghost,
that are always unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (as opposed to one god - WTF)
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
Just like Horace came from the Virgin Isis.
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12-11-2010, 08:58 PM
 
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(11-11-2010 07:55 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  The Salvation Army IS a church!! Big Grin

That's not entirely accurate. The Salvation Army is an arm of the UCC.


"The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God. Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination."



"The Salvation Army is an integral part of the universal Christian Church, although distinctive in government and practice."
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12-11-2010, 09:24 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
It is entirely accurate! Of course it's part of the universal church - as are all mainstream Christian churches!

Second paragraph from the page you linked:

"Salvation Army places of worship are sometimes called 'citadels' or 'temples', but, whatever their name, they are Christian churches open to the community they serve and offering a warm welcome to all."

They broke away from the Methodist Church to form their own. Initially called the Christian Mission in 1865

History:
http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa....enDocument
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