Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
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27-10-2010, 08:58 AM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(26-10-2010 10:35 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:Agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
-Dictionary.com

Now seing as how I was explaining where I was coming from, I doubt you'll find a dictionary anywhere with my definition. That being said, what I said fits neatly into the realm of the unknown and unknowable. Because it is unknown they both exist and do not exist.

Your last sentence is a total non sequitur, like I explained in my last post. "Unknown" does not mean "both true and untrue".

Quote:So no, you will not find any classical dictionaries with this definition. But if you're really going to come after my entire argument with "IT'S NOT IN THE DICTIONARY" then I was right to not respond.

I'm not going after your entire argument, so you can drop that straw man. Just seeing if you realized how hypocritical you were being.

Quote:So here's a question for you. Did you even try to understand what I'm saying or did you just begin with ripping it apart?

I tried to understand what you were saying, but what you were saying is wrong.

However, I agree with your initial premise - you are neither a theist nor an atheist. You're something else entirely, because, to be quite frank, your beliefs make zero sense. You are an agnostic something, but there's no word for the something.

Quote:You litterally added NOTHING to the conversation. All you did was subtract.

If you call pointing out where you made unwarranted leaps, constructed straw man arguments, and made erroneous comparisons "adding nothing, only subtracting", then yes, I did.

Quote:Why would I engage with you?

Presumably because you really believe what you said, and wish to defend it. If you aren't willing to submit your beliefs to critical examination and logical critique, then why are you posting them?

You came to a website called "The Thinking Atheist" and posted a bunch of false arguments and erroneous definitions, and then you got mad when people pointed out that you were wrong. What did you expect would happen, exactly?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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27-10-2010, 04:09 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
I was going to write this big post and tear you a new one, but you know what? You're not worth it. I allowed you to suck me back into an argument that, quite frankly, I didn't have the strength for. I'm not letting you do it again. Like I said, you're entitled to your opinions, but you've made it clear that your intentions are to rip both me and my ideas apart and I have ZERO patience for it. Could I defend myself against your attacks? Certainly. Do I care to? Not at all. There is absolutely nothing of value in it for me. People have read what I wrote and taken positive things away from it and engaged me in dialogue and I have enjoyed that. You're acting like a fucking bully and I will not subject myself to your nonsense or dignify any of the outrageous things you said.

Good day, sir.
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27-10-2010, 06:48 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(27-10-2010 04:09 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I was going to write this big post and tear you a new one, but you know what? You're not worth it.

No one is forcing you to respond.

Quote:I allowed you to suck me back into an argument that, quite frankly, I didn't have the strength for. I'm not letting you do it again.

"Suck you back in"? You brought this up. You started this thread. You continued to post in it with the same errors that I had already pointed out to you.

Quote:Like I said, you're entitled to your opinions, but you've made it clear that your intentions are to rip both me and my ideas apart

I have not once personally attacked you, so acting offended is rather pointless. I have stated - and I stand by it - that your ideas are false, based on straw men and misunderstandings. If you consider an attack on illogical belief to be an attack on your person, that is your problem, not mine, but it would behoove you to keep in mind that this is a public forum intended for serious intellectual discussion, and illogical nonsense is not likely to go unanswered.

Quote:and I have ZERO patience for it.

If you didn't want to talk about what you believed, you shouldn't have started this thread.

Quote:Could I defend myself against your attacks? Certainly. Do I care to? Not at all. There is absolutely nothing of value in it for me.

Except for the chance to critically analyze your beliefs.

Quote:You're acting like a fucking bully

How is pointing out where you make logical errors "acting like a fucking bully"?

Quote:and I will not subject myself to your nonsense or dignify any of the outrageous things you said.

What "nonsense"? What "outrageous things"?

Ghost, I have been entirely polite to you. Acting as if you have been insulted is not called for. It does nothing but make you look, at best, overly sensitive, and deliberately dishonest at worst.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-11-2010, 03:15 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
@ the OP

To make the distinction: what I think you're talking about is knowledge as opposed to belief. I agree 100% with your proposition, and as a theist would join you in asserting that no one can know either way regarding God's existence.

What other people have addressed are the question of belief, which is, I am convinced, another subject.

The term agnosticism makes no comment on a person's belief. Because religious 'belief' isn't based upon knowledge, but upon faith. There would be no need for faith if there were knowledge of God.

Thanks for an interesting post Wink
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08-11-2010, 04:23 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
(08-11-2010 03:15 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  @ the OP

To make the distinction: what I think you're talking about is knowledge as opposed to belief. I agree 100% with your proposition, and as a theist would join you in asserting that no one can know either way regarding God's existence.

What other people have addressed are the question of belief, which is, I am convinced, another subject.

The term agnosticism makes no comment on a person's belief. Because religious 'belief' isn't based upon knowledge, but upon faith. There would be no need for faith if there were knowledge of God.

Thanks for an interesting post Wink

I must ask...did you read the entire thread? I ask because you are agreeing with Ghost, and yet you say "The term agnosticism makes no comment on a person's belief". Ghost has made it clear that he believes god both exists and does not exist simultainiously. I'm not saying that Ghost is right or wrong, but it seems that you are both agreeing, and not agreeing with him simultainiously.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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08-11-2010, 04:30 PM
 
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
If Ghost can embrace an illogical position, then I suppose fr0d0 can, too!
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08-11-2010, 06:22 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
I read the first few pages thoroughly, I skimmed the last few.

I accept Ghost's belief based on knowledge. It's the only logical position as far as I can see. To state otherwise would be to claim knowledge of the impossible, and that would be intellectually indefensible.

What this establishes for me is that such knowledge is irrelevant to religious belief.

Religious belief is based on faith --> belief without such knowledge. It's a different usage of the word belief, as used in the religious context.

Faith being the assention to information then shown committed trust.
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08-11-2010, 06:54 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
Belief without knowledge. Yep, that sums up religion for me.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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08-11-2010, 07:41 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
Of course we're only alluding to scientifically verifiable knowledge here. If you call collated information knowledge then this is precisely what religion is based upon. What the discussion here (and on other threads) is proving is that scientific knowledge is wholly ineffective when considering the subject. Agnosticism (theistic or atheistic) recognises that fact.
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08-11-2010, 09:23 PM
RE: Why I am neither a Theist nor an Atheist
Hey, 2buckchuck.

I will not be the butt of your jokes.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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