Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
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09-10-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 02:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 02:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Opinions are like assholes...... Yes

Yup. Me, you, your brother-in-law, ...

Hmm, curiously, I just lost a rep point.
My suspicion is that it's for this exchange, but I don't know who it was. I know it wasn't you. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 02:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yup. Me, you, your brother-in-law, ...

Hmm, curiously, I just lost a rep point.
My suspicion is that it's for this exchange, but I don't know who it was. I know it wasn't you. Consider

Huh. Well, it's not like you don't have some to spare. Drinking Beverage

Maybe that'll learn ya for bein' so terse all the time. Tongue

It is curious, though......

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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09-10-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 02:33 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 01:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have been working on how to word this, but fuck it.

You brother-in-law needs to suck it up. They weren't trying to get pregnant, it was an accident.

And now he's all "boo-hoo" over an accidental bunch of cells? After a break-up? Romantic nonsense.

He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does.

Thanks for the terse empathy, buddy.

Shit happens, yeah, yeah. He's over it, it's not really that big of a deal now. I was simply using the situation to make a point.

"He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does"

I dare say you're an ass for saying that. Drinking Beverage

Well, Chas could have thought a bit longer about how to word this, but I must agree with the premise.

It was not planned, it was an accident.

Both parties already have children, so it's not like someone loses the one chance in life to make a baby.

The relationship of the "would be parents" is rocky at best. The kid would either be motherless or fatherless or grow up with discord all around.

They already have the "I will live on in my offspring" thingie covered.

They already contributed plenty to the world's population.

The mother will likely be very disturbed for a long time if not life if there is a child of hers running around in this world and she isn't part of it's life.

The man could sue her for child support.

There are lots of reasons why this kid would have been a bad idea, and we don't even have any idea of what actually happened there. I am sure there are a lot more reasons, personal ones.

Given all of the above, which kid do you think will have the better spot in life, the planned one or the accidental one?

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09-10-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 03:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 02:33 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Thanks for the terse empathy, buddy.

Shit happens, yeah, yeah. He's over it, it's not really that big of a deal now. I was simply using the situation to make a point.

"He's got no say and he's an ass for thinking he does"

I dare say you're an ass for saying that. Drinking Beverage

Well, Chas could have thought a bit longer about how to word this, but I must agree with the premise.

It was not planned, it was an accident.

Both parties already have children, so it's not like someone loses the one chance in life to make a baby.

The relationship of the "would be parents" is rocky at best. The kid would either be motherless or fatherless or grow up with discord all around.

They already have the "I will live on in my offspring" thingie covered.

They already contributed plenty to the world's population.

The mother will likely be very disturbed for a long time if not life if there is a child of hers running around in this world and she isn't part of it's life.

The man could sue her for child support.

There are lots of reasons why this kid would have been a bad idea, and we don't even have any idea of what actually happened there. I am sure there are a lot more reasons, personal ones.

Given all of the above, which kid do you think will have the better spot in life, the planned one or the accidental one?

What you say is true, in a general, sweeping view of all considerations. I happen to know a little better about the situation, but that's alright. The kid might have been conceived accidentally, but I am certain about my brother's plan for it, and she would have known this also.

I'm just saying that when both parties are involved, it's more complicated than "he has no say". I mean, obviously he doesn't, because she did what she wanted anyway. But was it really fair? That's all I'm getting at.

The finer points of our existence.



Fuck, I'm half nihilist anyway. What the hell am I going on about? Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-10-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 03:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 03:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, Chas could have thought a bit longer about how to word this, but I must agree with the premise.

It was not planned, it was an accident.

Both parties already have children, so it's not like someone loses the one chance in life to make a baby.

The relationship of the "would be parents" is rocky at best. The kid would either be motherless or fatherless or grow up with discord all around.

They already have the "I will live on in my offspring" thingie covered.

They already contributed plenty to the world's population.

The mother will likely be very disturbed for a long time if not life if there is a child of hers running around in this world and she isn't part of it's life.

The man could sue her for child support.

There are lots of reasons why this kid would have been a bad idea, and we don't even have any idea of what actually happened there. I am sure there are a lot more reasons, personal ones.

Given all of the above, which kid do you think will have the better spot in life, the planned one or the accidental one?

What you say is true, in a general, sweeping view of all considerations. I happen to know a little better about the situation, but that's alright. The kid might have been conceived accidentally, but I am certain about my brother's plan for it, and she would have known this also.

I'm just saying that when both parties are involved, it's more complicated than "he has no say". I mean, obviously he doesn't, because she did what she wanted anyway. But was it really fair? That's all I'm getting at.

The finer points of our existence.



Fuck, I'm half nihilist anyway. What the hell am I going on about? Drinking Beverage

They didn't manage to reach consensus. If they had sought counseling, maybe they would have. We just don't know enough about this to have any kind of opinion on that.

Just because he may have wanted another child, it doesn't make her his brood mare.

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09-10-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 03:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 03:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  What you say is true, in a general, sweeping view of all considerations. I happen to know a little better about the situation, but that's alright. The kid might have been conceived accidentally, but I am certain about my brother's plan for it, and she would have known this also.

I'm just saying that when both parties are involved, it's more complicated than "he has no say". I mean, obviously he doesn't, because she did what she wanted anyway. But was it really fair? That's all I'm getting at.

The finer points of our existence.



Fuck, I'm half nihilist anyway. What the hell am I going on about? Drinking Beverage

They didn't manage to reach consensus. If they had sought counseling, maybe they would have. We just don't know enough about this to have any kind of opinion on that.

Just because he may have wanted another child, it doesn't make her his brood mare.

That was pretty much my point. I was just trying to be poetic about it. Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 03:36 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 03:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 03:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  What you say is true, in a general, sweeping view of all considerations. I happen to know a little better about the situation, but that's alright. The kid might have been conceived accidentally, but I am certain about my brother's plan for it, and she would have known this also.

I'm just saying that when both parties are involved, it's more complicated than "he has no say". I mean, obviously he doesn't, because she did what she wanted anyway. But was it really fair? That's all I'm getting at.

The finer points of our existence.



Fuck, I'm half nihilist anyway. What the hell am I going on about? Drinking Beverage

They didn't manage to reach consensus. If they had sought counseling, maybe they would have. We just don't know enough about this to have any kind of opinion on that.

Just because he may have wanted another child, it doesn't make her his brood mare.

Nothing about this makes her his "brood mare". They both are culpable for the baby. His desires were cast off as though they are worthless, which according to Chas they were. I happen to disagree.

Both parties should be able to reach a deal, as was said earlier. A deal didn't happen, it wasn't fair.

Didn't mean for this to take over the thread, I was merely trying to insert a point. I'm not mourning for the lost potential life, I actually happen to think it was probably a good thing she did have the abortion. My point is in the fact that his desire for the baby was dismissed so easily.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-10-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 03:36 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 03:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  They didn't manage to reach consensus. If they had sought counseling, maybe they would have. We just don't know enough about this to have any kind of opinion on that.

Just because he may have wanted another child, it doesn't make her his brood mare.

Nothing about this makes her his "brood mare". They both are culpable for the baby. His desires were cast off as though they are worthless, which according to Chas they were. I happen to disagree.

Both parties should be able to reach a deal, as was said earlier. A deal didn't happen, it wasn't fair.

Didn't mean for this to take over the thread, I was merely trying to insert a point. I'm not mourning for the lost potential life, I actually happen to think it was probably a good thing she did have the abortion. My point is in the fact that his desire for the baby was dismissed so easily.

Yep, but that is a relationship issue. In my experience it takes two to make a mess out of a relationship. Had they been rational, they would have arrived at a communal decision.

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09-10-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Murder is a violation of an agreed-upon "right to life" - but almost all societies say that a "right to life" is not universal. Cf war and capital punishment.
No, I disagree.
A society comes together and creates rules (laws). I guess many people think these rules are set for various purposes.
You might think they are set to protect "rights"
I think the only defined rights here are the "legal rights" and these only become into existence one the law is already passed. Law creates legal rights it does not protect "rights"
As a group we create laws because we want a safe and stable society. We don't want to be murdered, we don't want our stuff stolen, we don't want to be assaulted etc.

(09-10-2013 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Society.
The government, hopefully as representatives of society create legal rights.
But just "rights" on its own. That is nonsense. The next best ruleset we have are the laws of nature. e.g. We can't travel faster than the speed of light.


(09-10-2013 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That in its own right is not particularly well-defined. When exactly does conception occur? Penetration by a sperm? Penetration by the fertilizing sperm? Fertilization itself? Duplication? Implantation?

Now, incidentally, however one defines 'conception' the thing in question is most assuredly not a fetus. It is a zygote. It is subsequently (~7 divisions) an embryo (in blastula and gastrula stages...). It is only much later (10 weeks!) a fetus...

Do the very large fraction of "conceptions" which subsequently spontaneously abort inform your view at all?
Lets say the point where the double helix is formed and the cells start to divide and multiply.
Yeah, about 50% of those natually abort, so what? there is also a percentage that we choose to abort, so what. It seems that most humans die before 80 years of age, does that mean they disqualify as being human?

NO one says they're "not human". Clumps of cells have no rights. Do cells in Petri dishes, (for cuture), have rights ? Do frozen embryos have rights? No.
Rights are (as agreed upon by society) granted to human PERSONS.
The question is "who is granted *personhood* status ?"
The law has not, to date, granted "person" status to embryos.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-10-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
The mother on the other hand is definitely a living person. Not a brood mare.

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