Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
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10-10-2013, 08:29 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
I think the main goal of most laws is to prevent pain (whether physical or emotional, or even financial) from being unduly inflicted on anyone; So, along those lines I would say we would have to draw the line where we can difinitively say the fetus can feel pain.

I wanted to reply last night to something that Dom already gracefully replied to earmuffs about, regarding their reasoning for being against abortion due to other options available e.g. adoption. Adoption is only an option for a limited amount of people and for limited regions at this time. Even so, in the US alone tens of thousands of children go unadopted every single year, moving from home to home through the system. To put it simply, there are not enough willing parents to care for the children ALREADY born, let alone those that some would force to be born, through removal of abortion as an option.

It is easy to sit and look at a narrow sampling of your region and assume that adoption would work for everyone everywhere, to control already out-of-control population increases. We are already heading for a population crisis, actually we are already in one, and you would seek to remove abortions of unwanted pregnancies as an option? I would really like to know how one would propose effectively controlling population by removing choice, without complete infringement of reproductive rights.

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10-10-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
.. and that's the key question in the end: Not "is abortion bad", but "what should the legal framework be around abortion"?

These are separate questions:
1. What parameters would you put around the acceptability of your own abortion?
2. What parameters would you put around the acceptability of others' abortions?
3. What legal ramifications would you apply to mother, doctor, and other facilitators of others' abortions?

(1) and (2) are likely to be fairly similar, but (3) requires a whole new level of insight into the ramifications of the legal framework. Does criminalisation of abortion actually reduce abortion rates, or does it just increase the percentage of dangerous abortions? How much harm are we prepared to accept in terms of dead or injured women due to unsafe abortions that could have been safe in a more lenient legal framework? How many women will you allow to die because they were miscarrying but the doctors' hands were tied - they could not abort the doomed foetus until it was too late and septicaemia had set in?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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10-10-2013, 09:09 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(10-10-2013 08:49 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  1. What parameters would you put around the acceptability of your own abortion?
Is the child's health OK?
Will the child likely have life satisfaction?
Will the child be an unacceptable burdon to me?
Can I afford to look after the child?
Am I willing to have someone else look after my child?
Is my wife willing to carry the child to term?
What is the impact (health wise and emotionally) on my wife and myself with regards to not going ahead with the abortion?
What is the impact (health wise and emotionally) on my wife and myself with regards to going ahead with the abortion?
(10-10-2013 08:49 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  2. What parameters would you put around the acceptability of others' abortions?
Does this abortion impact me, thus is it any of my business?
(10-10-2013 08:49 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  3. What legal ramifications would you apply to mother, doctor, and other facilitators of others' abortions?
As long as the mother wants the abortion, then there would be no legal ramifications on her.
The doctor needs to be qualified and certified to practice in my country, needs to be using acceptable medical practices.
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10-10-2013, 11:46 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
One more time... Tongue

(10-10-2013 12:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Well show me the statistics and I'll comment on it.
But again, I understand that the adoption service (and foster care as an extension of that) isn't perfect. But I still hold that the solution to that problem is improving the adoption service, not legalizing abortion.

Which are factors that need to be taken into account at the point of sex.
Job is one of the many factors. IMO, job is =/= to human life. It is sacrificing a human life, not a fetus, if the reason for your abortion is so you can keep your job.
This is what I mean by I don't think the reasons are good enough any more.
Potential job loss is one of the consequences you need to take into account.

Statistics on what? These children are missing. By definition, they can't be accounted for. How does one gather statistics on what happened to people who can't be found? I did link to several articles already covering cases of missing children and human trafficking.

How does one take into account what is going to happen during their pregnancy when they may have no idea what will happen during pregnancy? I had no idea when I decided to have my first child that it would mean I would have to quit my job and spend 9 months sick as fuck unable to get out of bed. Pregnancy has a lot of unforeseeable complications.

I agree with most of what you're saying here. Most abortions can and should be prevented. I don't agree with people using it as a means of emergency contraceptive because they didn't plan ahead. But to fix everything that is wrong with this scenario, someone would have to create a birth control that is 100% effective, and safe for everyone. Such a thing does not exist. We would have to overhaul every system that comes into play here, from the healthcare industry that makes it ridiculously expensive to have a child, to the adoption and foster care programs that don't give these children what they deserve and charge way too much to adopt, to recovery programs for mothers dealing with substance issues, and find some way to compensate women for their loss of pay when they are unable to work due to pregnancy. If you have the power or ability to fix all of these things, I'll back you. Until then, all we can do is fight for better sex education and better access to contraceptives so that women can make informed and responsible decisions regarding their reproductive health, and hopefully minimize the need for these services. But even if we could fix all these things, there would still be a small percentage of cases where an abortion is simply the best option, in my opinion.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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11-10-2013, 03:22 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(10-10-2013 01:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 01:31 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If your reason for the abortion is because you will have to quit your job than you ARE valuing your job over a human life because without that job you would otherwise bring a human life into the world.
You're saying, rather than have a baby I will have a job.
That's valuing your job above a human life.

Just like how every time you use birth control, rely on electricity, eat meat, entertain yourself, or drive a car, you are valuing your own pleasure above human lives.

OH, WAIT. That's absurdly reductive.

(and also human life is not an apt phrase to describe a blastocyst, which is a presupposition you have relied on throughout)

None of those are comparable because none are valuing human life above personal pleasure...

Quote:And just what am I supposed to do with a baby and no job? Babies and kids are expensive as heck! Do your research on that one.

I am aware of how expensive children are.
If you want my answer, read my posts.

Quote:I think that is a valid reason.

Why?
Why do you draw the line here and not where I draw the line.
Adoption is an available option so your only reason could be mother/children emotional issues. But, just a little while ago this child was nothing, you could suck it up with a vacuum and it wouldn't mean shit.
Why? because not long ago (in the pregnancy) you'd consider this thing non-human. But than what do you define as human?
Babies, especially newborns, don't do anything. They eat, they poop, they sleep.
A newborn baby is effectively not much different to a baby still in the womb in the sense that all they're doing is growing until they can actually do something we recognize as "human", ie: communicate, interact with things etc...
So, I'm not saying primordial ooze we call a fetus is the same as a baby, but it is on the same growth path, it's the very start. It may not be life as we would recognize it, but it's the beginning of the journey so to speak.


Quote:They won't be aborted - they'll be transferred. Consider I kind of like that idea.

If a woman decides to abort a pregnancy but the partner who donated the sperm wants this future baby, the consequence of their unprotected sex will be transferred from the female to the male.

FANTASTIC! Thumbsup

There you go Muffy; now men will have a turn at shitting out a bowling ball the glories of the biological bonding known as carrying to term and giving birth. Shy

You laugh and joke, but I like the idea of males being able to carry a baby to term.
And I would hold the same opinion towards them.

Quote:So you value your own judgment more than you do the judgement of those people who are trying to live their own lives and make their own decisions.
There is a high degree of arrogance here.
Why do you deem it your responsibility to stop others making what you deem to be the wrong choice? Why does your opinion overrule theirs?
With regards to government controlling people's lives, where do you draw the line? When are people to be allowed to make their own life decisions?

I value my own judgement over that of the general masses.
It's very well know that I have a high opinion of myself.
I don't deem it my responsibility. In all honesty, of issues that matter to me abortion is rather far down the list. I'm simply offering my opinion, I'm not actively promoting this at some government or whatever, I'm saying this is my opinion on this issue.
My opinion doesn't restrict decision making, it simply shifts where the decision is made.

Quote:Why do mothers have to justify to earmuffs the reason for them having an abortion? What makes their choice your business? Why should you be in the power seat rather than me?
If I was the ruler then I would say, "Let the mothers decide for themselves"
So why should your opinion overrule mine?

Why should yours overrule mine?
I'm sure I've done a lot more thinking, consideration and research on this than you, I suppose that might count for something.

Quote:Do people always have to make the best decision

Yes, as a general of thumb, the best decision is typically best.

Quote:So what? Who is it that is to decide what people ought to value? Why do you want to control people so much? Why not let them make their own decisions?

I could repeat that for literally any law ever made.

Quote:What do you think the purpose of government is? The purpose of law?

The government and law protects the state and looks after the well-being of it's citizens.

Quote:Yes, men don't have control over a woman's body. They can't force her to have an abortion and they can't force her not to. That would be extremely violent and no doubt would incur the wrath of her family and friends and even some objective bystanders (when they see a man using force on a pregnant woman)

I agree men don't have control over a womens body. But they do have some say in the end result of a pregnancy.
My opinion gives the male some power in the sense that he can say yes or no to sex, just the same as the women. Both have veto power. Where as with abortion only the female has veto power. This doesn't account for the males vested interests in the end result of pregnancy. Thus males getting shafted.

Quote:Hypothetical question for you Muffs:

If you were straight, successfully impregnated your female partner and she didn't want to keep it, would you offer your body up to carry the fetus to full term to then have a Cesarian and raise the child on your own, if science advanced enough to give you that option?

I'm not straight.
And it would be irrelevant because human contact, let alone getting freaking in the bedroom, is not on my to-do list. Sex, relationships, emotions, prolonged human contact. None of these things are appealing to me.

And note: I'm not talking about forcing women to the raise the child. I believe, if you actually read the thread, I mentioned adoption on several occasions. So the question would be the same, but minus raising the kid on your own part.

But like I said, I have no problem with males being able to carrying children, if science allows.

Oh, and what I want and what I think is right are two different things not connected to each other. Do I want to pay taxes? no. Do I think it's right I do so? yes.

Quote:What business is it of yours?

Are you going to support it? Change its diapers? Feed it? Educate it? Get up at 2 in the morning with it?

You clearly didn't read the thread.

Quote:It's not a human life.

I'm not saying it's a human life. Not in the way you're saying it is anyway.
But when you take into account that if you didn't have that job you'd have the baby, than yes it is as I said putting your job above a human life.




slight side note: On the issue of apparently me not being able to have an opinion on this. That's censorship. I'm 90% sure Chas has never given birth, yet I don't see any of you lovely ladies saying he can't have an opinion.
It's coming across very much as "you can have an opinion, but not when it conflicts with mine" which is censorship.




Quote:Statistics on what? These children are missing. By definition, they can't be accounted for. How does one gather statistics on what happened to people who can't be found? I did link to several articles already covering cases of missing children and human trafficking.

If I have 3 oranges and someone steals an unknown number of those oranges in the night. In the morning I count my oranges and I find I have 2 oranges.
How many oranges were stolen?
Didn't see sorry, there's a lot to wade through in this thread.

Quote:How does one take into account what is going to happen during their pregnancy when they may have no idea what will happen during pregnancy? I had no idea when I decided to have my first child that it would mean I would have to quit my job and spend 9 months sick as fuck unable to get out of bed. Pregnancy has a lot of unforeseeable complications.

Which is all part of what needs to be taken into account at the moment of decision.

Quote:But to fix everything that is wrong with this scenario, someone would have to create a birth control that is 100% effective, and safe for everyone.

I disagree. I think there's a certain acceptable percentage of error. Yes, it's low, but I think it would be acceptable. >1% sort of thing. And with both the pill and condoms used correctly together you get those sorts of percentages of safety.

Quote:We would have to overhaul every system that comes into play here, from the healthcare industry that makes it ridiculously expensive to have a child

Here it's free. 100% free, every single part of it. The scans, the delivery, even Plunket which is a new-mother help service thing that helps all new mothers with the first 5 years of raising that child, with differing degrees of help. ie: weekly check-ups for the first however many months, to monthly etc..
All the mother classes etc.. while you're pregnant (and after) are all free.
Everything, free.

I hate your American system of healthcare, it's so... shit. I don't see how all other developed countries can get it right and yet America, the supposed greatest country in the world (there's a joke), get's it so so wrong.
So yea, I think you need health reform. You lot need to catch up with the rest of the (developed) world on this one.

Quote:to the adoption and foster care programs that don't give these children what they deserve and charge way too much to adopt

Which would be an easy fix and a matter of un-clogging the machine.

Quote:to recovery programs for mothers dealing with substance issues

I don't know anything about substance abuse treatment, but I'll just go ahead and agree it needs improving.

Quote:and find some way to compensate women for their loss of pay

Do you not get maternity leave? Here if you get pregnant your employer has to keep you on the payroll and pay out 3months of your salary once you've had the baby. There's also welfare benefits for those without employment.

Quote:If you have the power or ability to fix all of these things, I'll back you.

That's the thing, these are all fixable issues. The biggest one is health, but like I said, in the rest of the developed world this isn't an issue. And your healthcare system needs a to catch up with the rest of the developed world anyway, that would effect your whole country not just mothers.

Quote:But even if we could fix all these things, there would still be a small percentage of cases where an abortion is simply the best option, in my opinion.

I agree, there's certainly a small percentage where abortion is the best option.
The obvious 1% rape, incest and health which clear cut. But also a slightly larger percentage of unique cases.
The problem, as I've said, is that abortion isn't being used I suppose you could say responsibly.

Quote:And they say all atheists have the same opinions......... Dodgy

Well some of us got to be different. Rustle the nest a little.

Quote:And just to make my position absolutely clear.
Even if the unborn has a functioning brain, even if it has a consciousness. I am still pro-choice because it is still none of my business what a woman does with her unborn.
It seems completely arbitrary for a third party to say "because it has a brain therefore I am not going to let you abort it". How does the unborn having the possession of a brain all of a sudden make it the concern of this third party?
It would be like telling your neighbor that they aren't allowed to pick kiwifruit off their own vines unless the fruit is ripe. How is it any of your business when your neighbor picks their kiwifruit?

It's not that clear cut.
Someone picking their own kiwifruit is a non-issue because we don't give rights to kiwifruit and don't have that level of value on a kiwifruit as we do on a human life.

You have to remember, we're talking about something that later is a human.
It's not as clear cut as you're making it out to be.




I'll respond to the rest a bit later.

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11-10-2013, 04:53 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(11-10-2013 03:22 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Sex, relationships, emotions, prolonged human contact. None of these things are appealing to me.

Oh, I didn't know. Now I understand how you could take such a stance. You are missing the emotional aspect. You don't get what this would do to women on an emotional level.

It's not a nine month deal, Muffs. Either way, it's a life sentence. And no, it's not easy to give up a baby after birth. Depression is the least of the consequences. It goes against one of the very base instincts, the reaction to this has been imprinted on us all through evolution as the most important thing there is - preservation of the species.

The woman who gave up the job for delivering a baby may not be able to give up the baby on top of that. She may end up keeping it, and you will be paying for it as now she is not a productive member of society anymore, but needs to rely on society for sustenance for herself and her child.

Finally I get why you would hold such a ridiculous position. You don't get the largest part of it - that it is totally opposed to human nature to carry babies to term and then leave them in the dust. Thousands of years of evolution cannot be undone because Muffsy thinks it's irrational.

Once it is an actual human being, the mother cannot help but love it. One way or another, it is a life sentence for the woman. You ruined one human life to add one to the human population. What's the point of that?

That's cold, Muffsy, very, very cold.

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11-10-2013, 05:03 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
Your sig:

What's an "oyseter" and why/how does it bear "2 tickets"?

hansom = a two-wheeled horse-drawn cab
handsome = good-looking

The face on the sig isn't hansom or handsome. It looks like an off-duty ugly transvestite. "Anything is possible" except correct spelling?
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11-10-2013, 05:27 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Besides rape and health reasons, there should be any reason a women can't bring that fetus/baby to term.
If I kill someone I don't get to simply opt out of jail say to the judge "nah 20 years in jail doesn't sound good to me, I'm just gonna go home instead". There are consequences. Just as pregnancy should be a potential consequence of having sex, you shouldn't have that option to simply "opt out". Not in todays society anyway.

That's a question begging argument, i.e. you are assuming to be true that which you need to demonstrate to be true.

The entire matter of the morality of abortion turns on the notion of personhood as it relates to the zygote and foetus. You've simply assumed that a zygote is a person ("If I kill someone..") and proceeded from that point to beg the question. For your position to have any merit you need to demonstrate how a zygote and an early term foetus possess personhood. You haven't done so.

If zygote and early foetus lack personhood then an abortion has no more moral ramifications than any other procedure that involves the removal of any unwanted tissue from the body. Thus without demonstrating that abortion necessarily terminates the life of a person you really have nothing.
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11-10-2013, 05:54 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
Yup, exactly what I expected you to write. Are you bored Muffs? I'm not convinced this thread is a serious one on your part, but rather an attempt at distracting yourself. I've seen you do it before. IandI has his signature, you have yours. Drinking Beverage

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11-10-2013, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2013 12:35 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(11-10-2013 03:22 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  It's not that clear cut.
Someone picking their own kiwifruit is a non-issue because we don't give rights to kiwifruit and don't have that level of value on a kiwifruit as we do on a human life.

You have to remember, we're talking about something that later is a human.
It's not as clear cut as you're making it out to be.
It is clear cut for me. I don't see a human as having more "rights" than a kiwifruit.
"Rights" is some arbitrarily imagined concept.

It is not my goal, nor do I have any motivation to control other people.
If their actions don't impact me, then it is none of my business.
They are free to make their own decisions, I refuse to force my own opinions on them. I refuse to use the police (by proxy) to physically force them to conform to my opinion.

How is your desire to force your moral beliefs and beliefs on "rights" onto others any different to someone wanting to force their religious beliefs onto people? Religious beliefs boil down to a religious flavour of morality and "rights", Exactly the same as what you are wanting to do.
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