Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
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21-03-2014, 08:56 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 08:50 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I don't think abortion should be a legal issue. I don't think anyone really should have a say besides the specific woman who is making the decision. I do, however, believe that a potential father should have the right to metaphorically abort a fetus with the same time frame as the woman as for an actual abortion. Men should also have the option to dump the consequences so long as they do it within a time that the woman has the knowledge of their choice to help her make hers.
If that made sense. Sometimes in know something in my mind be I have a hard time putting it in words.



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21-03-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 08:42 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 08:01 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  By the way...babies NEVER live inside a vagina. Never.

Thank you



I will never in my whole life understand how ANYone makes that mistake of thinking babies live inside vaginas?
What the actual fuck?
**shakes head in fear**

Makes me want to post diagrams with explanations of female reproductive organs.
*sigh*
This isn't the first time I've heard someone say 'baby in vagina' and it makes me want to pull my hair out by the roots

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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21-03-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 09:00 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 08:42 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Thank you



I will never in my whole life understand how ANYone makes that mistake of thinking babies live inside vaginas?
What the actual fuck?
**shakes head in fear**

Makes me want to post diagrams with explanations of female reproductive organs.
*sigh*
This isn't the first time I've heard someone say 'baby in vagina' and it makes me want to pull my hair out by the roots

You know those last few weeks of pregnancy when feels like your baby is hanging out in you vagina. Those three weeks are the reason I hate when people say that. Lol

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21-03-2014, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2014 10:21 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(20-03-2014 05:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  To say "pointlessly" is a matter of subjective opinion.
To say "hurting others is bad" is a proclaimation of objective truth.
Dude i'm not interested in your semantic tennis,hurting others is bad because it has consequences and everyone knows that very well and empathetic feelings make us feel bad even if we get away with it that's what morality is all about being empathetic no one gives a damn about objectivity when it comes to morality.

These so called "Objective moralists" do nothing but appeal to authority while they themselves are just reinforcing their own subjective moral values with that.
Quote:I don't consider abortion to be murder.
Eh.. do i have to list all the times you've said "Mother chooses to kill her fetus" "ignoring the rights of the fetus"? you do think that its "killing" a fetus it doesn't matter what the legal status of abortion is.
Quote:A fetus can scientifically be demonstrated to be a seperate entity from its mother, this is not an opinion, it is a scientific fact.
I still don't see how that makes fetus anymore of a person.
Quote:It seems to me you just want to argue rather than discuss my actual point of view.
I don't really see what your actual point is here :-

"we are discussing how a moral believer can accept the rights of a mother but ignore the rights of a fetus"

You think fetus is an individual?
Abortion is "killing" and should be morally reprehensible?

You seem to be implying that fetus is an individual with human rights of its own and aborting it is "Killing" it,needless to say i disagree on both points.
Quote:If abortion is considered murder then I think it would make sense to change the law and make abortion not to be murder
I'm not talking about the LAW! i'm talking about moral accountability,laws differ from country to country and culture to culture.

Goddamit just because i use the word "murder" doesn't mean i'm strictly using only one context,i was using it as a synonymy for killing.

I was asking you that if according to you abortion is "Killing" an individual/person/whatever what should be the solution to this?

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21-03-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Just like drinking is a choice.
Actually speaking of drinking, we inflict punishment on those under the influence of alcohol. Why? Because we recognize alcohol as a choice that a person makes and so we uphold them to the consequences of that action if not done responsibly.

Ohh, I can't wait for instant blood detoxifyers...
But, would we have a alcohol abortion controversy? Consider

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21-03-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 01:47 PM)nach_in Wrote:  why does anyone have the right to force a women to carry a baby in her womb for 9 months?

It's not about the consequences of having the baby, is about forcing somebody to do something with her body.

That's a stupid argument.
We force people to do things all the time.
Murder someone? Off to jail with you. Hell, in some places around the world do something bad enough and they'll kill ya. They sterilize repeat sex offenders. Police can legally take blood samples from people in cases such as a car accident.
Everything from jail to blood samples, all things that the state can legally restrict/take on your body.

AND as I said, it is ultimately the women's choice. If she has sex than a potential consequence of that is she can get pregnant. Nobody forced her to get pregnant, and in the case of rape I 100% support abortion.

I use to have the same opinion you have, I would say the same as you just did.
The key factor is recognizing that sex is a choice. Just like drinking is a choice.
Actually speaking of drinking, we inflict punishment on those under the influence of alcohol. Why? Because we recognize alcohol as a choice that a person makes and so we uphold them to the consequences of that action if not done responsibly.

What I'm trying to say is, why do we hold sex in a completely different light to alcohol, murder, streaking across a football game?
We accept that if you do things than there are consequences to those actions.
YET us (or now you) pro-choice people hold sex to a completely different degree of expectations. Suddenly it's "we have no right to say that there are consequences to those actions", suddenly it's completely okay to make absolutely stupid decisions such as have unprotected sex and there be no consequences.

What I'm trying to say is, why do we hold sex in a completely different light to pretty much everything else..?
It's a choice just like everything else. Just like alcohol is a choice. Just like taking drugs is a choice. Letting some dude shove his unprotected dick into your vagina is a choice.
As such I'm saying, just like murder, just like alcohol related offense, just like everything else in life, there should be consequences.

Muffsy, no no no. Omg Facepalm
Sex is not illegal. Drinking Pepsi is a choice, no legal consequences. Drinking alcohol is a choice no legal consequences. The reason we don't treat sex like murder is because sex is not illegal.
If we went by your standards, it should be illegal to
Take pills that prevent hang overs, because they're a consequence of drinking alcohol.
Exercise to prevent weight gain if you eat unhealthy food.
Take anti acids after eating hot wings.
Everything in life has natural consequences like having sex could get you pregnant, and eating pie can make you far. Only illegal things have legal consequences. If you're saying you think it should be illegal to have sex then please support that argument. Otherwise, treating sex like a crime instead of just a normal legal choice seems irrational to me.

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21-03-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 09:52 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  That's a stupid argument.
We force people to do things all the time.
Murder someone? Off to jail with you. Hell, in some places around the world do something bad enough and they'll kill ya. They sterilize repeat sex offenders. Police can legally take blood samples from people in cases such as a car accident.
Everything from jail to blood samples, all things that the state can legally restrict/take on your body.

AND as I said, it is ultimately the women's choice. If she has sex than a potential consequence of that is she can get pregnant. Nobody forced her to get pregnant, and in the case of rape I 100% support abortion.

I use to have the same opinion you have, I would say the same as you just did.
The key factor is recognizing that sex is a choice. Just like drinking is a choice.
Actually speaking of drinking, we inflict punishment on those under the influence of alcohol. Why? Because we recognize alcohol as a choice that a person makes and so we uphold them to the consequences of that action if not done responsibly.

What I'm trying to say is, why do we hold sex in a completely different light to alcohol, murder, streaking across a football game?
We accept that if you do things than there are consequences to those actions.
YET us (or now you) pro-choice people hold sex to a completely different degree of expectations. Suddenly it's "we have no right to say that there are consequences to those actions", suddenly it's completely okay to make absolutely stupid decisions such as have unprotected sex and there be no consequences.

What I'm trying to say is, why do we hold sex in a completely different light to pretty much everything else..?
It's a choice just like everything else. Just like alcohol is a choice. Just like taking drugs is a choice. Letting some dude shove his unprotected dick into your vagina is a choice.
As such I'm saying, just like murder, just like alcohol related offense, just like everything else in life, there should be consequences.

Muffsy, no no no. Omg Facepalm
Sex is not illegal. Drinking Pepsi is a choice, no legal consequences. Drinking alcohol is a choice no legal consequences. The reason we don't treat sex like murder is because sex is not illegal.
If we went by your standards, it should be illegal to
Take pills that prevent hang overs, because they're a consequence of drinking alcohol.
Exercise to prevent weight gain if you eat unhealthy food.
Take anti acids after eating hot wings.
Everything in life has natural consequences like having sex could get you pregnant, and eating pie can make you fat. So long as your actions are no illegal there is no reason for the government prevent you from trying to avoid those consequences. Only illegal things have legal consequences. If you're saying you think it should be illegal to have sex then please support that argument. Otherwise, treating sex like a crime instead of just a normal legal choice seems irrational to me.

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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21-03-2014, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2014 10:21 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 07:55 AM)Bjorn Wrote:  In cases of rape, yes. But otherwise, no, have the baby
In other words Force the woman to have the baby right?

geez this abortion problem is so damn simple and people still don't get it,abortion is not a good thing and but its a natural part of female reproductive system which can be used for terminating pregnancy and its not anymore immoral than when it happens naturally..

I don't see how a woman consciously choosing terminate a pregnancy is immoral and abortions happening without her conscious isn't,its the same damn process and yet people get their panties rustled when woman gets to "Choose" yeah makes perfect freaking senseFacepalm

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21-03-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Dude i'm not interested in your semantic tennis,hurting others is bad because it has consequences
A fetus counts as "others", killing a fetus counts as "hurting others"
If you believe hurting others is bad then please explain why you ignore the fact that abortion is hurting the fetus. Your belief system is confused.
When you invent a term such as "person" and suggest that a fetus isn't a person you are playing mental gymnastics. There is no objective scientific definition of "person". There is no objective point in time where a fetus transubstatiates from being "not a person" to "a person" this is a belief system of yours and it has no grounding in reality.

(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  and everyone knows that very well and empathetic feelings make us feel bad even if we get away with it that's what morality is all about being empathetic
Not everyone believes or accepts emotivism as their moral belief system

(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  These so called "Objective moralists" do nothing but appeal to authority while they themselves are just reinforcing their own subjective moral values with that.
When you make a claim such as "hurting others is bad because..." then you are appealing to an Objective Morality.
If you don't think hurting others is objectively bad then to be more clear you could rephrase as "I personally think hurting others is undesirable because..."

(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:I don't consider abortion to be murder.
Eh.. do i have to list all the times you've said "Mother chooses to kill her fetus" "ignoring the rights of the fetus"? you do think that its "killing" a fetus it doesn't matter what the legal status of abortion is.
Please don't continue to use the word "murder" when you mean "Kill" they have very different meanings. At the moment it is very confusing trying to talk to you.

(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:A fetus can scientifically be demonstrated to be a seperate entity from its mother, this is not an opinion, it is a scientific fact.
I still don't see how that makes fetus anymore of a person.
You keep flip flopping between the words "individual" and "person". These are very different words. This makes it very difficult to have a conversation with you.
As I have said before "Person" has no scientific meaning, it is part of your own belief system, not mine. It has no verifiable, empirical context. Why bother to use it?

(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:It seems to me you just want to argue rather than discuss my actual point of view.
I don't really see what your actual point is here :-

"we are discussing how a moral believer can accept the rights of a mother but ignore the rights of a fetus"

You think fetus is an individual?
It's not that I think a fetus is an individual. It can be objectively scientifically shown that a fetus is an individual separate from the mother.

(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Abortion is "killing" and should be morally reprehensible?
This isn't my position.
I don't have any moral beliefs.
Abortion is the intentional killing of a fetus.
If you are going to invoke your own moral belief system regarding "forcing a woman to have a baby against her rights" then I'd be keen to know how your moral belief system considers the rights of the fetus and the intentional killing of it. Thus far you are ignoring this part of the equation.

(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  You seem to be implying that fetus is an individual with human rights of its own and aborting it is "Killing" it,needless to say i disagree on both points.
"Rights" is part of a belief system that I don't hold.
However a fetus is demonstrably an individual, and abortion demonstrably kills the fetus. Do you disagree with scientific fact?


(21-03-2014 09:36 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I was asking you that if according to you abortion is "Killing" an individual what should be the solution to this?
Let the mother kill her fetus if she wants to because it is none of my business (or governments) what she does with her fetus. It causes no danger for me or for society in general.
It's not a matter of morality, its a matter of mind your own business.

If you try to make it a matter of morality then I can quite easily show you that you are playing mental gymnastics.
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21-03-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
I completely understand where you're coming from, but I'm going to have to disagree. It's a woman's body, and she should decide what to do with it. It's unfair but that's how it is. As long as she gets the abortion as early as possible, I don't see the problem. Some people probably could not deal with having a child, signing their rights over to the father, or giving it up for abortion, and having that child know that his/her real mother didn't want to take responsibility for him/her. They'd rather just not have the baby. It probably sounds ridiculous, but that's how some people feel. I am only nineteen and I don't know everything. But I do know that sex is very important to me. I'm not going to stop having sex. But I'm also not going to be having babies until I've really had all the awesome experiences I've wanted to have, traveled, and I'm where I want to be financially, probably in my early thirties. I want my children to be with me, and I want to give them the best. That's subject to change, but that's how I feel right now.
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