Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
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21-03-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
I had an abortion when I was in my twenties.

I was on birth control but it failed and my husband and I were newly married at the time and had no way to pay for the cost of raising a baby. I was about 5 weeks pregnant when I had the abortion so it was very early. I never felt one bit of guilt about it. There has never been any traumatic, emotional baggage I've had to deal with. No regrets. It was my body and I control what happens to it.

Frankly, I've known many other women who have had abortions for one reason and another and they don't feel any regrets either. It's our bodies.

Most of you probably know women who have had abortions but aren't aware of it because it's a private thing. It's not something women discuss much.

I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if this is still pertinent to the discussion.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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21-03-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 02:07 PM)leftymii323 Wrote:  I completely understand where you're coming from, but I'm going to have to disagree. It's a woman's body, and she should decide what to do with it. It's unfair but that's how it is. As long as she gets the abortion as early as possible, I don't see the problem. Some people probably could not deal with having a child, signing their rights over to the father, or giving it up for abortion, and having that child know that his/her real mother didn't want to take responsibility for him/her. They'd rather just not have the baby. It probably sounds ridiculous, but that's how some people feel. I am only nineteen and I don't know everything. But I do know that sex is very important to me. I'm not going to stop having sex. But I'm also not going to be having babies until I've really had all the awesome experiences I've wanted to have, traveled, and I'm where I want to be financially, probably in my early thirties. I want my children to be with me, and I want to give them the best. That's subject to change, but that's how I feel right now.

If you wait to have babies AFTER your wish-list/bucket-list needs you will never have them.


just sayin........


Best time to have a baby is when you find out your pregnant and you're THRILLED with the news.
There is NO exception to this.

Thrilled is the ONLY way to bring a child into the world. Anything else isn't good enough - not to be a parent and certainly not good enough for a child.

HeartHeartHeart

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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22-03-2014, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2014 07:05 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(21-03-2014 01:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  A fetus counts as "others", killing a fetus counts as "hurting others"
Only in your opinion,in my opinion fetus doesn't count a person or an individual human being.

A fetus is a potential human being not a human being,that's a clear distinction right there.
Quote:why you ignore the fact that abortion is hurting the fetus.
Well technically you are also hurting the sperm while masturbation and ovum cells during menstruation,but no one seems to complain about that? only when it gets into a woman's belly its suddenly a big deal Gasp
Quote:There is no objective scientific definition of "person".
I don't really need any,i call that a fetus and for argument's sake i point out that its not a human being but a "potential" human being.
Quote:Not everyone believes or accepts emotivism as their moral belief system
Well you don't even subscribe to morality so it shouldn't matter to you right?
Quote:When you make a claim such as "hurting others is bad because..." then you are appealing to an Objective Morality.
No.. i'm not there is no objective source for morality,i have no higher authority to get morals from either so the only source for morality is just me which is subjective.

In reality nothing can be objectively determined except for math equations,the very senses we use to perceive the world around us is subjective and susceptible to distortions.

So i don't see a point in bringing objectivity where it doesn't belong.
Quote:If you don't think hurting others is objectively bad then to be more clear you could rephrase as "I personally think hurting others is undesirable because..."
Well i don't think "Its just me" i'm confident that majority of humanity shares the same moral values.
Quote:As I have said before "Person" has no scientific meaning, it is part of your own belief system, not mine. It has no verifiable, empirical context. Why bother to use it?
So according to you "Person" is an unscientific term like race? okay.
Quote:It's not that I think a fetus is an individual. It can be objectively scientifically shown that a fetus is an individual separate from the mother.
A fetus is NOT a separate individual,it lives inside a pregnant woman and depends on her for its growth.

In fact, the biological definition of "parasite" as you've mentioned fits the fetal mode of growth precisely.

In the Biological definition a fetus maybe considered an "individual organism' but so is the fly i just swatted,non-biologically a person/individual is defined by someone who are by definition separate individuals having interacted with this world and a fetus is just a maturing embryo it has no memories,no life experiences nothing,it is indistinguishable from all the other fetuses in the world aside from its DNA.

That's why its not a person and biologically it isn't a separate individual either.
Quote:Abortion is the intentional killing of a fetus.
Well yeah in the same sense that you kill sperm cells,ovum cells and mosquitoes but not in the same sense of killing a human being,a person,a separate individual.
Quote:I'd be keen to know how your moral belief system considers the rights of the fetus and the intentional killing of it.
A fetus is not a person,not a separate individual human being so its morally A-OKAY to kill it.
Quote:However a fetus is demonstrably an individual
Dude just because you want to have a point you cling to strict scientific definitions,a fetus is not a "Separate individual human being" its a parasitic maturing embryo.

I don't think its morally wrong to kill a parasitic maturing embryo.
Quote:It's not a matter of morality, its a matter of mind your own business.
Well for most people its a matter of morality that's why people are so hung up on this abortion thing.

If it was just a "matter of minding your own business" people wouldn't even bother taking this issue seriously.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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24-03-2014, 06:18 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  You ask me 2 weeks ago, "hey muffs, what's your opinion on abortion?" and I would inform you that I am very much firmly on the pro-choice side of the fence.
I was very much of the opinion of "womens body, womens choice" and didn't care for the pro-lifers style of arguments "it's wrong to kill" "human-beings are sacred" blah blah life is sacred bullshit. Son, there are over 7 billion of us on this planet, millions die all the time because of preventable diseases and hunger. Many more because of poor global wealth distribution (people suffer while others earn more than small countries). We have wars ALL the fucking time... Jesus Christ can't the globe go one fucking year without a god damn war?????
There's absolutely nothing fucking "sacred" about humans. In a nutshell we're greedy parasitic lice.

So anyway, I was at my sisters the other day and it's something her annoying house mate said to me. And I didn't really have an answer to it. And the more I thought about it, the deeper I thought about it the more it made complete perfect sense.
She said to me "I don't see why a women can't carry a baby to term".
Now on the surface it looks stupid. But is it..

Now, I just want to make it clear, I'm still very much for abortion in the case of rape and if having the baby will medically effect the mother (besides being pregnant..) in a serious way, ie: death.

The sentence got me thinking. With gay marriage becoming more and more accepted (and legal), infertile couples, or just couples looking to adopt there must be demand out there. Add to that single parent mothers are considered normal (where as back in the day there would be huge pressure on her to give up the baby), welfare checks are often increased when you pop a couple kids out, contraception is easily available etc..
It got me thinking that there is no reason for a women to NOT carry that baby to term when there are loving couples out there looking for babies.

The pro-choice argument often revolves around ruining the mothers life. ie: some 16 year old girl now becoming a mother.
But with adoption this isn't the case. She can still attend school (she may need to take a couple weeks off once she has the baby though I suspect). She can give the baby to a loving couple that will take it and she can than still carry on with school, maybe collage and have children at a later date when she is more ready to take on that responsibility.

The way I'm now looking at it, and what has made me shift camp, is to look at it like a consequence. We're all bound by the law. If we break the law, there are consequences. If I drink 1 too many there's a consequence the next morning. If I kill a man the consequence is I go to jail. Action and re-action.
And if you have unprotected sex the simple truth is that you can get pregnant.
Even protected sex.
If you actively decide to engage in sex then you run the risk of getting pregnant.
It's that fucking simple.
Sex education is everywhere, there are campaigns everywhere regarding "use a condom" and other safe sex things. Condoms are readily available. There's simply no excuse any more.
And so I no longer support the pro-choice arguments. It can simply not be okay for us to simply say "oh you made a bad choice, it's okay you can have a little procedure and carry on with your life". NO, that's not good enough. We should be saying, you made a mistake, you live with the consequences. Just like if that same 16 year old was to kill someone, hell even manslaughter, there would be serious consequences.

Besides rape and health reasons, there should be any reason a women can't bring that fetus/baby to term.
If I kill someone I don't get to simply opt out of jail say to the judge "nah 20 years in jail doesn't sound good to me, I'm just gonna go home instead". There are consequences. Just as pregnancy should be a potential consequence of having sex, you shouldn't have that option to simply "opt out". Not in todays society anyway.

Fuck me that was long winded.

My issue with your argument about the consequences of a person’s decision to have unprotected sex is this…

Why do we have sex with other people? Biochemistry? Instinct? Whatever it is that makes us want to rub our goodies against one another, the desire to do so is a product of what makes us 'us'. We are subject to our desires, instincts, awareness and experience.

When a burger lover bites into a nice, big, juicy burger (not the best analogy I know, sorry non-meat eaters, just stick with me a second) we aren’t always thinking “Hmm… I wonder what the immediate health risks of this are?” (Even if we should be lol!). Often we are just thinking about that dose of dopamine that we’ve had from eating burgers before. Or not thinking about it at all, just following our desires. Heck, they may even forget to wash their hands if they are super hungry!

Sex feels good. It is fun. People enjoy it. It is also often spontaneous. It is only human to focus on the immediate gratification and forget about potential consequences. My wife and I aren’t planning on children yet but we aren’t always careful (sorry for the overshare). Life, thankfully, is often spontaneous and exciting.

Also, it is not a life that is being aborted. It is unaware, cellular matter. It is a potential life (or a potential skin cream, or even a potential coded letter if you were a World War I MI6 agent – it’s true lol, they used jizz to write ‘invisible ink’ letters. Gross.) Anyway. When carried out at an appropriate time an abortion does not have the potential to physically hurt anyone but the woman having the procedure.

You say that a person should have thought about their decision and suffer the consequences of their actions. Surely simply having to get the procedure is enough of a ‘lesson’?

A woman shouldn’t be forced to carry a child that was not intended.

That seems a little sadistic to me.
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24-03-2014, 06:30 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(24-03-2014 06:18 AM)Seldon Wrote:  Sex feels good.

ShockingShockingShocking
[Image: 1277819-gtfo.barker.jpg]

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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24-03-2014, 06:34 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(24-03-2014 06:30 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 06:18 AM)Seldon Wrote:  Sex feels good.

ShockingShockingShocking
[Image: 1277819-gtfo.barker.jpg]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound seedy (excuse the pun).
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24-03-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(24-03-2014 06:34 AM)Seldon Wrote:  
(24-03-2014 06:30 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  ShockingShockingShocking
[Image: 1277819-gtfo.barker.jpg]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound seedy (excuse the pun).

LOL
You sounded FINE. I'm just making a joke, hon. ThumbsupThumbsup

(Seedy - **giggle snort**)

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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24-03-2014, 06:42 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
I know haha, I just can't resist a pun.
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01-04-2014, 07:40 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  (...) it's something her annoying house mate said to me. And I didn't really have an answer to it.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  (...) you shouldn't have that option to simply "opt out".
(08-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  (...) We force people to do things all the time.
Hello earmuffs, nice to "meet" you.

Let me please see if I have understood your point. The reason why you think other people should not be able to choose what they do with their lives is because someone asked you a question that you didn't have an answer to. And since we force other people to do things all the time, why shouldn't we force them to do yet other things?

I have never forced you to do anything and I never will; I am very aware that it is your brain, and not mine, what is connected to your muscles, so your behaviour is for your brain to decide, not for mine. If I tried to choose how your muscles move, and thus what actions you perform with them, I would be attempting to live your life as well as mine, and that wouldn't be fair. You are as lucky as I am to have become assembled into existence. So while I may be able to tell you my own experiences if you ever ask for advice, I will never be in a position to command your behaviour, because your life is your luck and your responsibility, not mine.

Are you responsible for other people's behaviours? Is your brain attached to their muscles? Are you in a position to command them because you know what is best for them? Or, even worse, are you in a position to command other people's behaviours because you don't have all the answers?

I am not a woman so I will never be in the position to decide whether I carry out a full pregnancy or not. I cannot really know whether I would or not, so I cannot even give advice to any woman who actually finds herself in such situation; I'm sorry, I don't have all the answers. But my ignorance yields my non-interference with other people's choices. I leave it up to their brains to analyse their own circumstances, imagine all the possible outcomes, and decide what they find most appropriate, especially when it comes to what they do with their genes. In accordance with your logic, I should decide how other people behave based on whatever I may believe.

Why shouldn't we force people into slavery? We already force people to do things all the time, don't we?

Can I ask you to please live and enjoy your life, and let others live and enjoy theirs?

Have a great day.
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01-04-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(01-04-2014 07:40 AM)living thing Wrote:  ...
Can I ask you to please live and enjoy your life, and let others live and enjoy theirs?

Have a great day.

FYI, pro-tip, you being a newbie n'all:

It's sometimes best to read the whole thread.

But if you did, I think you might have missed this:
(16-10-2013 10:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Oh, I've changed my opinion back to pro-choice by the way.
Some of you made valid points and argued well. Most of you were pretty shit though.

Carry on.

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