Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
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08-10-2013, 05:35 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
Muffs, I have two questions:

When does a fetus become sentient?

What are you willing to do to take care of unwanted children?

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08-10-2013, 05:45 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 05:35 PM)Dom Wrote:  What are you willing to do to take care of unwanted children?

This. Some posts I've seen here and elsewhere on this topic seem to romanticize the adoption situation quite a bit. It's not always puppies and kisses and rainbows; in fact, sometimes it's not a very good situation at all. And this is only one reason why I think a woman shouldn't be forced to carry a pregnancy to term and then just give it up and hope somebody else is willing to take care of it.
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08-10-2013, 06:14 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 01:57 PM)Dom Wrote:  And do you think a woman can give a baby she carried up for adoption like you throw an empty carton away?

And there is a huge shortage of adoptive parents. Orphanages still exist and they are full of lonely kids.

Humans are crawling all over this planet multiplying like rats. We really don't need to encourage it...

No I don't, I'm sure it's an extremely difficult thing to do.
But why should abortion be any different?
Both are a case of "a baby I could have had", I'm sure neither are easy.
But, and this is probably gonna sound dickish, that's part of the consequences.
Also, there are plenty of mothers who give their child up for adoption but are still a part of that child's life. Back in my parents day it would never happen, but now it's common.

Foster homes are filled with lonely kids because people don't want to adopt after a certain age, and especially troubled kids ie: removed from parents homes because parents were unfit.
Babies, as in newborns, is a different story.
And as I said, with gay marriage and no doubt soon gay adoption becoming increasingly acceptable in society, I only see the demand increase.

(08-10-2013 02:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Two simple objections.

Birth control is not 100% effective.

Pregnancy and childbirth are risky to a woman.

Maternal death rates are extremely low with modern science and shit.
Wiki claims in the US 9 out of 100,000 births result in the mothers death.
9 out of 100,000.
In Singapore it's 3 out 100,000.

Yet, alcohol can cause endless types of liver problems and other health problems. Many legal drugs have negative side effects, certainly prolonged usage. Smoking, well... nuff said about smoking. All legal by the way.
We accept today that if you smoke you run the risk of lung cancer.
Even something we all do, drive. There is always a risk of death when I pull out onto the road (more so because I ride a motorbike). We accept that when we make the choice to do so.

I think pulling the health card no longer has much weight to it with today's healthcare.

(08-10-2013 02:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  A clump of human cells, with no neural tube, is not a "baby". It's a "potential" baby.
So are unfertilized human gametes.
You're gonna have to get a LOT more specific.
Good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure I did say "potential baby". I am meaning potential baby in my head if I'm not saying it.

(08-10-2013 02:20 PM)Ohio Sky Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  What I'm trying to say is, why do we hold sex in a completely different light to pretty much everything else..?
It's a choice just like everything else. Just like alcohol is a choice. Just like taking drugs is a choice. Letting some dude shove his unprotected dick into your vagina is a choice.
As such I'm saying, just like murder, just like alcohol related offense, just like everything else in life, there should be consequences.

Abortion is hardly escaping the consequences. Even when that's the decision that's made, it's a difficult and expensive one for the mother, while having little impact on anyone else. Carrying an unwanted pregnancy, on the other hand, is a burden to the mother temporarily, but impacts society and the child for the remainder of his/her life. In my eyes, the parents and only the parents pay the price. When an unwanted pregnancy is carried to term, the child pays the price.

This assumes all babies brought to term suffer.
What about the ones that do grow up to live pretty decent lives?

My Mom was adopted by my grandparents who couldn't have kids. My Mom has two children, recently a grand child, she has a honors degree and has been happily married for god knows how long. I wouldn't say she has suffered (besides having to raise me).

That link you gave with all the statistics, allow me to cite some of those statistics.
Children Entering Foster Care 2011: 252,320
Children Exiting Foster Care 2001: 245,260

Yes, adoption makes up only 20% of that exiting foster care, but my point is that children are being homed. There are other types of doing it besides adoption, such as 8% go to live with family members.
And if you look at past years the total number of foster child has decreased by 88K between 2007-2011. And in all previous years before 2011 there were more children homed than put into foster care.


In regards to adoption (because it is a big part of my whole thing here) I do agree that the system is shit. It's bogged down with shit tons of bureaucracy and paper work, it's financially expensive to adopt and can be a lengthy process.
I think however though because this is just my thoughts on the whole matter currently and they actually have no bearing on actually policy that they allow for the opinion that the adoption service needs to change and not change my opinion to fit around the adoption service. If I was in a position of power to change policy I would have to take into account current adoption services, but I am brain storming thoughts here so I'll think to change the adoption service instead.
(if that paragraph made any sense...)
Which leads me to..

Quote:And again, there are WAY more children out there without parents than there are parents who want to adopt.

Wrong.
https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/s_seek...o%20Adopt?

30 have thought about adopting, would maybe adopt. But only 2% have done it.
My point is, the demand is there. People will adopt. BUT the system is shit.

I'm not saying give anyone who wants one a baby.. I'm saying, there has to be more families out there that would absolutely adopt a baby if it was a 1) cheaper and 2) easier process than it currently is.
It's so doable. It's just about connecting the right people together with a better system.

I'm not sure if it's that link I sent you or another on the previous page but it gave a little pie chart as to adoption in America. 47% adopted outside of the US, compared to 41% of adoptions being inside the US. The main reason being that the system in the US sucks. Think about if that 47% was adopting inside the US instead.. There's your other 50K for the previous stats.
Not including new couples/people who could now adopt and who would jump at the opportunity to do so.


Quote:The idea that unwanted pregnancies should be brought to term because there are people that can't have children is not a valid reason to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term.

I think this is the fundamental key difference between what I'm saying and pro-choicers.
Pro-choice people, like yourself, say we're forcing women to carry a pregnancy to term.
What I'm saying is, people, should accept the consequences of their actions. I didn't decide for that person if they were gonna have sex or not, that was purely their decision.

Quote:Abortion will happen no matter what, coat hangers, stomach punching, poison consumption or back alley premidwifes.
FFS let qualified doctors save the woman so when she is ready for a child her womb is not fraked.

"Unsafe abortions sometimes occur where abortion is legal, and safe abortions sometimes occur where abortion is illegal.[20] Legalization is not always followed by elimination of unsafe abortion."

Quote:@muffs You compare sex to murder? People (women) need to be punished for having sex? Do you not get much action? People in loving committed relationships should be free to have as much sex as they please, and the woman shouldn't have to worry about her career ending every time birth control methods fail. You're sounding awfully republican/religious with that line of thinking. I agree that if a mother is able that it's a noble choice to try to carry that baby to term, but forcing it on her by law isn't the way to do it, "choice" is the key word.

I'm gay, it wouldn't matter how much action I got the chance of pregnancy is slim.
But don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-sex. I don't care if people hump all day like rabbits in heat. I'm simply saying that people need to be aware that there are risks and consequences.
It's like gay sex. There is a certain amount of risk of contracting aids, more so than heterosexual sex. You need to be aware of these things and if you don't want to consequences to happen than you need to take steps to avoid it.


My point is, I accept that people have sex and I accept that contraception is not 100% safe (though they have reversible contraception which is less likely to result in pregnancy than snip snip and tube tying) BUT that's part of the risk.
Just like smoking cigarettes might not lead to lung cancer. You still have to be aware that there is that risk.

(08-10-2013 02:54 PM)kim Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  What I'm trying to say is, why do we hold sex in a completely different light to pretty much everything else..?
It's a choice just like everything else. Just like alcohol is a choice. Just like taking drugs is a choice. Letting some dude shove his unprotected dick into your vagina is a choice.
As such I'm saying, just like murder, just like alcohol related offense, just like everything else in life, there should be consequences.

Murder is a choice. But maybe it's not always just a choice. Maybe it's an accident. And maybe there were extenuating circumstances. Maybe it wasn't even manslaughter - maybe it was self defense.

Taking drugs/alcohol/overeating food is a choice. But maybe it's not always just a choice. Maybe it's an accident. And maybe there were extenuating circumstances. Maybe it's a genetically predisposed addiction.

Letting some dude shove his unprotected dick into your vagina is a choice. But maybe it's not always just a choice. Maybe it's an accident. And maybe there were extenuating circumstances. Maybe there was a rubber and it broke.

Consequences don't always address everything that goes into the reasoning which governs choice. Choice can not predict and consequence is hindsight. Shy

In your thing about murder, self defense would be the equivalent of rape for which I still support abortion.

How does one have accidental sex that's what I wanna know.
But yes, maybe the rubber did break which comes back to my previous point of that is part of the inherent risk. Going back to the car analogy, when I take my motorbike for a spin there is an inherent risk that the front tire will burst. If this happened I'd come off the bike, no question about, you can't recover from a front tire burst. My point being that many different factors are included in the whole total risk.

(08-10-2013 03:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Sorry Muffsy. Love ya dude but staunchly disagree. That is exactly why men, unless they have a vested interest, such as in responsible in part by causing a pregnancy, should frankly shut the fuck up and keep their opinion to themselves.

There are plenty of issues men can actively voice their opinion on, however until they (men) can actually grow a baby in their belllies or an embryo can be successfully transferred after implantation from one body, who presumably doesn't want it, to another who does, they should keep quiet.

In the end you opinion means as much as my opinion on viagra or prostate massage.

I disagree. I'm a human being. Okay, I'm of a demi god but you know what I mean.
You're saying my opinion means nothing because I've never been through it?
But is not every women different? Doesn't every women go through it differently?
How can you compare one women's journey to another?
You haven't been in person X's shoes so how can you say about their experience?

My point being I'm a person on the outside looking in, which is what most of us are, even women. I get what you're saying, but it's flawed. We wouldn't be able to have opinions of I assume most things if we could only have opinions on things we've first hand experienced.

We're all humans, we all have that common factor and I think as a human my opinion has a little bit of weight behind it, just anyone else.

Quote:Third, it grossly oversimplifies the process of giving birth and then giving up that child...

Compared to "just have an abortion"?

Quote:Fourth, it's based on the same BS 'life begins at conception' rhetoric that is completely unfounded....

Nothing to do with "life begins at conception".
The potential for life does though.

Quote:Fifth, it creates legal gray areas, encourages pregnant women to claim they where raped, etc...

This is a valid point. I do agree it's an issue but the think the pros out weigh it.

Quote:Sixth, it places increased strain on the medical system to deliver unwanted babies (often for patients without means/insurance) for many times the cost of an abortion...

I disagree. Maternity wards are always packed. It wouldn't matter if there was 5 births a day or 500. Resources will always be allocated to adjust for the increase or decrease in overall births, but they'll always be under staffed and over worked.
That's not a maternity ward problem, that's a health/police/fire department/education problem.

Quote:Seventh, it doesn't even solve a problem?

Which is why pro-choice will win out in the long run.
Pro-choice I think solves a lot of problems.

I think my point is more about.. humanism.

Quote:What happens if birth control fails? If someone is using birth control, I'd consider that person "being responsible" even if a pregnancy occurs.

But there it is again: punishing the woman for having and enjoying sex. I'd say abortion is a responsible decision in many cases.

I'm not anti-sex.

Quote:As for compassion, it seems like a lot people don't have any for women, if they think they need to be punished for having sex.

Jesus, I'm not anti-sex. It's hardly my fault men can't get pregnant. If men could get pregnant I'd be saying the same thing.

There's nothing sexiest here, I like women, prefer them to guys most the time actually (non-sexually obviously). It just happens that only women can get pregnant.

Quote:There seems to be an assumption in many posts that there is something wrong with abortion, but it is not stated.

If you believe there is something inherently wrong with abortion such that it has to be justified, please be explicit.

I think there is something inherently wrong with getting an abortion when you are capable of bringing that potential child to term. I do not think life begins at contraception, but a potential life certainly does. It's that whole "a fetus never grows up to become anything" argument. The key being not doing something when you could have.
I think excuses like "she shouldn't have to if she doesn't want to" and "it'll ruin her life" are void in today's society, certainly with a little adoption reform. Medical treatment is top notch and the risks are minimal.

I just think it's wrong that we value human life, or in this case potential human life so little these days. You'll raise good arguments I think but it just strikes me as the opt out button. Not for the women, but for society. Why bother improving our foster care? Why bother improving our adoption services? Why bother improving the education system to better suit troubled or struggling children? Why bother improving sex safety awareness? Why do all that when we can just pass a law that wipes all those problems away..? It just seems like the easy, cheap (not the financial term) option rather than tackling the proper issues such as the biggy, poverty and why are 47% of adoptions in America done outside America (compared to 41% local) and why do foster children on average have 20 IQ less?
It just seems like such an inhuman solution to such a human problem. That we've become so desensitized to life that we're willing to throw it away in a plastic bag with a biohazard sign slapped on the side. And don't give me this "fetus isn't alive" crap, it CAN BE alive at some point. You can't say a fetus isn't alive (even though I agree it's not physically alive in the sense that it's a human being) because it can be. And by saying "a fetus isn't a person" it is just side stepping the very real fact that it can be.



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08-10-2013, 06:15 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2013 06:21 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 03:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Sorry Muffsy. Love ya dude but staunchly disagree. That is exactly why men, unless they have a vested interest, such as in responsible in part by causing a pregnancy, should frankly shut the fuck up and keep their opinion to themselves.

There are plenty of issues men can actively voice their opinion on, however until they (men) can actually grow a baby in their belllies or an embryo can be successfully transferred after implantation from one body, who presumably doesn't want it, to another who does, they should keep quiet.

In the end you opinion means as much as my opinion on viagra or prostate massage.

Women who say they are pregnant, but aren't actually, to see how their man will react, should be sent to prison Dodgy Make a "the pill" for men to take regularly that somehow temporarily disables our ability to reproduce, and watch pregnancy "scares" drop %99.9 worldwide!!! We'd have memory like steel traps THEN. No "I forgot" from our camp! Dodgy
Tongue I kid I kid, da-yum Hug

(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It got me thinking that there is no reason for a women to NOT carry that baby to term when there are loving couples out there looking for babies.

Maybe you'd think different, Muffs, if, say, every time you insulted Indians your balls grew to as big as an elephants for 9 months, at the end of which time you had to pass a kidney stone the size of a marble through your penis!

"But I like insulting Indians Sad , but I don't want to pass a marble through the entire length of my penis every time I do Sadcryface "
"Sorry bitch! Buy the ticket take the ride. We didn't make you insult Indians! Good luck sitting & leaning forward for the next 9 months! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA "

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08-10-2013, 06:25 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
So you think there are not enough people on this planet and hence we have to force people against their will to produce more?

And, your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Making your opinion a life changing law that affects me directly, is not ok. And your argument that not all women feel the same about this and hence your opinion is as good as ours - Pfffft. You have no idea and never will have an idea of what it is like.

You want to treat women like cattle and force them to bear offspring - for what? To increase the world's population? Frusty

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08-10-2013, 06:26 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2013 06:31 PM by amyb.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
Quote:What I'm saying is, people, should accept the consequences of their actions. I didn't decide for that person if they were gonna have sex or not, that was purely their decision.
You're saying that children are a punishment (I'd hope that actual parents don't think of them that way) and that women should be punished for having sex. This is what I find unacceptable.

I don't have a problem with people having sex. If they have an accident or their birth control fails, I don't think they or a potential child deserves to be punished because "well, they shouldn't have been having sex if they don't want a baby!" That's what abortion is for, to keep women who don't want babies from having babies.

Quote:I'm simply saying that people need to be aware that there are risks and consequences.
Yeah, but those can be minimized by things like birth control and abortion. Your idea of "consequences" sounds a lot like punishing women for having sex.

Quote:I'm not anti-sex.
Then why do you want to punish women for having sex by forcing them to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term?

Quote:I think there is something inherently wrong with getting an abortion when you are capable of bringing that potential child to term.
Why is having a child always better than not having a child, in your view, then? When most abortions are done, it's a fetus, a potential child, not a baby. Is more always better? Woman are people, not incubators. I don't think they should be forced to bear children against their will. I still haven't seen a really good reason why increasing the number of unwanted babies is a good thing.

Quote:I just think it's wrong that we value human life, or in this case potential human life so little these days.
Except in cases of rape, when the fetus' life doesn't matter because the woman didn't have sex on purpose or enjoy the sex, so it's "not her fault."

It sounds like you're trying to have it both ways: the fetus' life matters, but it doesn't really matter if the woman was raped and didn't enjoy the sex. This sounds like slut-shaming.
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08-10-2013, 06:33 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
You haven't answered:

If you believe there is something inherently wrong with abortion such that it has to be justified, please be explicit.

-or-

Birth control is not 100% effective.

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08-10-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
First off, congratulations for litening, thinking, considering and changing your mind. It shows you are a thinking and open minded enough to change your position rather than to defend it vigorously.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  She said to me "I don't see why a women can't carry a baby to term".
Cool, that's a very valid point.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It got me thinking that there is no reason for a women to NOT carry that baby to term when there are loving couples out there looking for babies.
Again, very valid point.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The pro-choice argument often revolves around ruining the mothers life. ie: some 16 year old girl now becoming a mother.
Actually that is only one possible justification but it isn't the argument of pro-choicers.
The argument comes down to this:
Whose decision is it?
The main vested parties are:
Government (as a representative of society)
Mother (her womb, her obligation to go through pregnancy and birth, her possible obligation to look after the baby until it becomes independant)
Father (his possible obligation to look after the baby until it becomes independant)
Potential adoptive parents (They want the unwanted, but possibly conditional on it being healthy, maybe conditional on gender, skin colour etc)
Pro-choicers generally want the decision to be that of the Mother's as she has the most vested interest and as it is her body so it would be somewhat violent (and cause for major conflict) for someone else to decide to abort the pregnancy. It would also seem strange to allow the Father to make the decision to force the Mother to carry through with pregnancy even if she wants to abort. If there are enough adopive parents then why are there orphanages? Does it seem bizare to allow stranger to force a women to go full term because they want her baby?
Pro-lifers want the government to make the decision as long as that decision is to have the baby. Do you really think that your government is better placed to make the decision rather than the mother? What is the purpose of government? Do you think we are to support the government in forcing rules onto capable adults on a whim, based on someone's idea of morality? Or is the government's purpose to support a stable, inclusive and diverse society rather than a moral one?
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The way I'm now looking at it, and what has made me shift camp, is to look at it like a consequence.
Great viewpoint.
What is the consequence on society of allowing the mother to make the choice herself? Will the abortion result in civil unrest? in conflict, in war? Will society become unstable? If not then why is this a government matter? Why should the government take the choice away from the mother?
Why do you as an individual member of society feel that you ought to force your opinion on a mother that you don't know? Why are you giving your elect government power to force this woman to go through pregnancy and birth? How does the impact on you compare to the impact on the mother?
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  If you actively decide to engage in sex then you run the risk of getting pregnant.
It's that fucking simple.
That's true, many things in life come with risk. Sometimes we can deal with the consequences if those risks come to fruition, e.g. We ride a bike, we fall off and break our arm. Should we leave the arm broken or should we go to hospital and take care of it?
Why should the government take away the option for abortion?
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And so I no longer support the pro-choice arguments. It can simply not be okay for us to simply say "oh you made a bad choice, it's okay you can have a little procedure and carry on with your life". NO, that's not good enough. We should be saying, you made a mistake, you live with the consequences.
I'm sorry but who are you to make this decision on behalf of others? Are you god almighty himself? Why should your opinion be forced on others here? Make no mistake, creating a pro-life law is forcing your opinion on others.
(08-10-2013 01:18 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Just like if that same 16 year old was to kill someone, hell even manslaughter, there would be serious consequences.
Sure, as a society we can't have people going around murdering each other. The consequences are that people will retaliate, there will be serious conflicts and feuds and gangs and wars. Society will become unstable, let alone unsafe for you and me because people will be allowed to murder us. I don't want to live in that society, it sounds dangerous for me.
But abortion isn't causing conflict or war. Its too late to abort me, so I am safe and my society is stable. So why is abortion a matter for the government?
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08-10-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
So you're saying that carrying the foetus to term should be the legal penalty for a women who had sex?

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08-10-2013, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2013 06:54 PM by amyb.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
Quote:It got me thinking that there is no reason for a women to NOT carry that baby to term when there are loving couples out there looking for babies
Wait, what?

I can think of dozens of reasons a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant shouldn't have to carry a baby to term. She doesn't have to answer to childless couples, her life is her own. You also seem to think pregnancy is no big deal. Even for women who want babies, pregnancy isn't all fun and games and throwing baby showers. There is morning sickness, back pain, hormonal changes and mood swings, cravings, possibility of gestational diabetes, perineal tearing, HUGE FUCKING DOCTOR BILLS and that's only to name a few. I wouldn't force that on any women who doesn't even want a baby.
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