Why I am no longer pro-choice no longer.
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09-10-2013, 12:07 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 11:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 11:43 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Viability may introduce some technical uncertainty, but it is the right moral standard I think. A life should mean something, and I'm not willing to go along with a 'first scream' rule where some abortion rights proponents go when they consider the fetus not a person until the moment it is fully delivered and takes its first breath.

Why should I be motivated to live up to your personal moral standard?

The value of human life is not a personal moral standard. If it were, murder would not be illegal. The questions around abortion have to do with the technical question of when the fetus is a life on its own. I'd expect none of us atheists to agree with the religious point of view that life begins at conception. Viability is as close as we can get to an objective determination of when the fetus has some rights as an independent life. When do you think the fetus is its own life? You don't get to duck that question and hide behind an assertion that these are individual choices.
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09-10-2013, 12:52 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  The value of human life is not a personal moral standard. If it were, murder would not be illegal.
I disagree. Murder is illegal because most of society members don't want to be murdered, so we outlaw it. It is dangerous to us.

If you think there is an objective moral standard, then where does it come from?
If you think it is subjective, then how is it not just an arrogant elevation of your own opinion?


(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  I'd expect none of us atheists to agree with the religious point of view that life begins at conception.
I am happy to agree with the theists on this one. I just don't see it as my business to stop mothers from aborting.


(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  Viability is as close as we can get to an objective determination of when the fetus has some rights as an independent life.
Who is it that determines rights?

(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  When do you think the fetus is its own life?
The moment of conception
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09-10-2013, 01:41 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 06:14 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  "Unsafe abortions sometimes occur where abortion is legal, and safe abortions sometimes occur where abortion is illegal.[20] Legalization is not always followed by elimination of unsafe abortion."

Holly crap your moral compass is out of wack,
please just read the first 5 words of this link

"Unsafe abortion: the preventable pandemic"
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/pu...ncet_4.pdf

They might not have popular support as say the discovery institute, but im pretty sure the WHO has reasonably reliable data.

Abortion should be legal for this reason alone, i welcome better psych evaluations for patients and maybe a set cooling off period.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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09-10-2013, 05:07 AM
Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 11:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Why should I be motivated to live up to your personal moral standard?

The value of human life is not a personal moral standard. If it were, murder would not be illegal. The questions around abortion have to do with the technical question of when the fetus is a life on its own. I'd expect none of us atheists to agree with the religious point of view that life begins at conception. Viability is as close as we can get to an objective determination of when the fetus has some rights as an independent life. When do you think the fetus is its own life? You don't get to duck that question and hide behind an assertion that these are individual choices.

murder is illegal but killing is not. For example capital punishment, ironically favored by many so called prolifers
is legal in the USA. more or less, the definition of murder is illegal killing. So the statement that murder would be
illegal does not make sense then.
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09-10-2013, 05:59 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
Y'all over-thinking this. Ya got one side that is rational and reasonable, and one side that is fucking nuts. If I ever had a change of heart - about as likely as birthing a T-Rex - I wouldn't be joining the other camp. I'd be I have no opinion.

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09-10-2013, 06:48 AM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2013 06:53 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 12:07 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 11:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Why should I be motivated to live up to your personal moral standard?

The value of human life is not a personal moral standard. If it were, murder would not be illegal. The questions around abortion have to do with the technical question of when the fetus is a life on its own. I'd expect none of us atheists to agree with the religious point of view that life begins at conception. Viability is as close as we can get to an objective determination of when the fetus has some rights as an independent life. When do you think the fetus is its own life? You don't get to duck that question and hide behind an assertion that these are individual choices.

I'd say it's an "independent life" when it gets to be about 18 years old.
If it's a male, maybe about 29 years old. Tongue

Define "life ON IT"S OWN".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-10-2013, 06:58 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
I still don't get why it is so important to continue to increase the planet's human population... we are sorely overpopulated as is.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-10-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(08-10-2013 11:43 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Viability may introduce some technical uncertainty, but it is the right moral standard I think. A life should mean something, and I'm not willing to go along with a 'first scream' rule where some abortion rights proponents go when they consider the fetus not a person until the moment it is fully delivered and takes its first breath.

As long as we're going with technical uncertainty, I think themoral line in the sand for me would be when the fetus can feel pain (in most cases). There's much debate about when this occurs, but I think that would be the point where the decision truly has a negative affect on the fetus.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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09-10-2013, 09:49 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
(09-10-2013 08:57 AM)Ohio Sky Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 11:43 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Viability may introduce some technical uncertainty, but it is the right moral standard I think. A life should mean something, and I'm not willing to go along with a 'first scream' rule where some abortion rights proponents go when they consider the fetus not a person until the moment it is fully delivered and takes its first breath.

As long as we're going with technical uncertainty, I think themoral line in the sand for me would be when the fetus can feel pain (in most cases). There's much debate about when this occurs, but I think that would be the point where the decision truly has a negative affect on the fetus.

The evidence points to the end of the second trimester for that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 10:05 AM
RE: Why I am no longer pro-choice.
People always cry "let the baby live, it could be the next Einstein!" they fail to realize it could also be the next Hitler. Potentiality means nothing.

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